Are Mormons Better Christians?
Posted by Tim Wade on December 2, 2008
If you had asked me ten years ago if I thought members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were Christians, without hesitation I would have told you NO! But that was before I met Kathryn Skaggs, and today I am not so convinced.
I met Kathryn as LDSNana via Twitter less than a month ago. She is a dedicated wife, mother, and for more than 30 years a devoted Mormon, whose faithfulness to her church and her Lord Jesus far exceeds what I am accustomed to seeing in many Protestant churches. She sees herself as a minister, and is dedicated to helping people understand Mormons, and the LDS Church. As long as you show respect and courtesy, she will answer almost any question about her faith. 
Before I go any further, let me be candid and say that I will never be a Mormon. My beliefs in the Bible prevent me from believing in the Book of Mormon or the revelations of Joseph Smith. But as I poured over LDSNana’s blog and read the answers to some of the questions she has been asked, I could not help but come to the conclusion that today’s Protestant churches need to take some lessons from the Mormons. What follows are four areas of faith in which Mormons truly excel, to which the Church needs to wake up and pay attention.
1. Marriage and Family – Long before Covenant Marriage became the new Christian fad, the Mormons were practicing it as part of their faith. By way of making marriage a covenant union –as opposed to just making a vow – the marriage is taken more seriously. And the numbers speak for themselves. Religious polls from various sources consistently show divorce rates among Mormons (24%) to be less than that of Protestants (27%) and less than the national average at the time (around 25%.)
While all Christians place an emphasis on the family, Mormons do it exceedingly well. It begins at the altar, and is carried throughout the home. Emphasis is placed on faith, fidelity, and the universal concept of family of God. Indeed, all Christians believe in it, but Mormons practice it better than most.
2. Sanctification – Many years ago, my father, a Protestant pastor, told me about Mormon underwear. I laughed at the idea – as most ignorant people do – and filed it away, surely to be pulled out the next time two guys riding bicycles, wearing white button up shirts with ties came to my door.
Then the other day I found out that the holy underwear, or Temple Garments as they are called, are a symbol of the Mormon believer’s sanctification unto God. Like the linen ephods worn by the priests of the Old Testament, the Temple Garments are a symbol of the sacred, and a reminder of how God’s children are separated unto Him.
I know of nothing within my own Baptist faith to which the church holds as sacred to remind them of their value to God, or the Price He paid to redeem His children. I would even say that except for the occasional sermon from a well-meaning pastor, Christians in America no longer even consider their sanctification in Christ.
And yet, as the Church we are called out and commanded to live separately from the world around us. We are commanded by God to sanctify our time, our talents, our abilities, our money, and live our lives in deference to His purposes. Mormons wear holy underwear to remind them of their sanctification while the majority of the rest of the church seems to conveniently forget it.
3. Missions – We’ve all seen Mormons riding their bicycles, or sticking out like a sore thumb in Wal-Mart in their freshly pressed white shirts, black slacks, and ties, or knocking on doors telling people about Joseph Smith and the LDS Church. Those well-dressed cyclists are Mormon missionaries, young men and women usually fresh out high school in the middle of college who have chosen to take two years out their lives to share their faith with the world.
At last check there are approximately 13 million Mormons worldwide. Compare that to the 60 million members of the Southern Baptist Convention. Dare I say that if the SBC sent out in direct proportion the number of missionaries as the Mormons, you would see the SBC growing instead of declining, and a lot more people coming to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Can you imagine what would happen if all Protestant churches did what the Mormons do? When was the last time your church systematically went door to door and asked an entire city if they wanted to follow Jesus Christ?
4. Social Enterprise – You will never see the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in financial jeopardy. In a world of downsizing, government bailouts, and market crashes, Mormon businesses and the Mormon Church are alive and thriving.
In all fairness I don’t know how many Mormons own businesses. And I don’t know how many companies the Mormon Church owns, if any, or if the church partners with a holding company of some sort that owns airlines, and hotels, and marketing firms and whatever else. What companies Mormons own is not the point. The point is that individually and collectively they own these companies, and give liberally to support their ministries and their churches.
Fault them if you so choose. I have been trying to convince my little Baptist church to start a social enterprise for a year. You would think that after three solid years of budget shortfalls they would take the hint. I even proposed a social enterprise venture to help our local homeless shelter who made a desperate plea for funds lest they go bankrupt within a year. Again, no one listened.
Why not run a business and turn the money over to the church, or the local mission, or some Christian ministry? Do you think no one would support it? Do you think the idea of a religious organization running a business would deter people from patronizing your company? Think again
Even if the number of Mormons tripled today, they would be insufficient to self sustain the number of businesses they own. In other words, whether you like them or not, you probably have patronized a Mormon business; that is unless you have done your homework and purposefully avoid them.
One note worth mentioning is that while you may not know you are patronizing a Mormon-owned business, there are signs to look for. Mormon businesses typically offer top shelf customer service. Customer satisfaction surveys have for years shown that most Mormon owned businesses treat their patrons with dignity, courtesy, and the deepest of respect. Complaints, while rare, are typically handled efficiently and expediently. Why the Protestant church as a whole has not latched on to this concept is beyond me.
I’m sure by now many of you are shaking your heads and screaming. I can see the comments even as I write these words about how Mormons believe weird things and are not real Christians. To your screams may I share two final thoughts?
First I do not care what Mormons believe. Mormon theology is not the subject of this post. As previously stated, I do not agree with many of their beliefs, and chances are more than good that I will never be a Mormon. However, and this is my second point, I am not stupid. When two companies selling the same products have the same goals, and one succeeds while the other one flounders, I want to know why. No doubt if I want to succeed the best way to do that is to follow the example of the company that does the job the best. My suggestions to those who claim to be God’s true church is to stop playing church; stop criticizing the Mormons for what they do well. Once the criticism stops, then perhaps the Church will find the means to follow the Mormon example and win the world to Christ.
This entry was posted on December 2, 2008 at 8:23 pm and is filed under Mormons, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Tagged: Family, LDS, Marriage, Mormons, Social Enterprise, Temple Garment, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
jayceh said
Thanks for the nice perspective. As a “mormon” it’s rare to get a nice take online nowadays. This kind of respect is exactly what I hope we are showing you too. Whether or not you believe the same as me, I hope we can respect each other’s devotion, and be willing to have simple discourses such as this that can be mutually beneficial in spirit.
Candace Salima said
Thank you so much, Tim. It is delightful to see someone pointing out the strengths of my fellow Mormons, our belief in Jesus Christ, family, sanctification, hope, loyalty, fidelity, solid work ethics and more. We are far more alike than we are different, believe me when I say that. Being a devoted Christian and Mormon, and also a friend of Kathryn Skaggs, I can say I strongly believe if we as Christians stood together against the tide rising against Jesus Christ and His followers, I believe we would be far more successful in stopping the onslaught then succumbing. So again, thank you for your sweet and delightful blog. I enjoyed it immensely.
Tim Wade said
Jayceh, Candace, thank you for affirming that which I believe the Lord has spoken to me and to His Church. Surely it does not matter how one comes to Christ whether it be as a Baptist or a Mormon. What does matter is what we do with all that He gives us by way of eternal life in Christ. It is my hope that I honor our Heavenly Father, His Son, and His Spirit with that which has been given to me.
Again, thank you for your comments.
Sharon Cohen said
Thank you so much for giving the Latter-day Saints (Mormons) a fair shake here.
You have looked at the best of what we are rather than to criticize or fault us for our individual imperfections.
Benny Greenberg said
I never take sides – that is just me and my look at things in the public forums. But great piece – love the way you prove what it is you are laying out for us to read! Nice work!
Willis Whitlock said
There is much to learn from each other. Christians should love all men. Certainly there is disagreement on doctrine. We do well when we look for good in each other. Thank you for that reminder.
Katharine said
Thank you Tim. Very Christlike article. If all Christians acted LIKE Christ, loved LIKE Christ and let all Christians worship the way they see fit, there wouldn’t be all the contentions between the denominations. Thanks for seeing the good in Mormons, even when you disagree with them.
Shayne said
Tim, I am impressed with your sense of fairness and your knowledge of the facts. I also appreciate you telling of the success the LDS Church is having in helping deliver the message of Christianity. My Mormon pioneer ancestors were persecuted because of their beliefs. But they did have some friends. I hope other Christians will follow your example and look for the good in people of all faiths. Tolerance is a wonderful virtue. I applaud you for all the good work you are doing to help brings souls unto Christ.
Amy Boyack said
Thank you so much for pointing out the things you like about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. You are showing Christianity and that impresses me a great deal. I hope I can live up to your expectations and image of the LDS church members or “Mormons”.
Natasha said
The thing is, if a church was guided by the Lord directly, WOULDN’T it be successful? In every way that doesn’t depend on the righteousness of individuals (i.e. conversion of the masses), wouldn’t it be staggeringly successful? Everything the church produces is of the highest quality, individuals with agency aside.
Bless you for your Christlike heart and for seeing that we strive to seek after, emulate, and depend upon Christ.
Author said
Hi Natasha,
Thank you for the comment. You are most correct in your assessment of the power of the Church. If a person were to allow their mind to wander, and let themselves imagine what God could do through his people if they simply submitted their will to His at every turn, the endless possibilites could drive them mad.
You and I can not begin to fathom what the children of God could do to advance the Lord’s Kingdom if the power of the Almighty were to flow through us unbridled from our fleshly lusts. God bless.
Tim Wade
David said
Tim,
I absolutely appreciate your comments. I believe that all Christians should be able to work together and love one another in Christ-like harmony.
thanks,
David
Joe said
Great commentary. Maybe other faiths will wake up and start being more Christian, like the Mormons (almost sounds odd to say).
Thanks for the good read.
Greg said
Mormons and Protestants need to learn from each other. Mormons are vastly superior to Protestants when it comes to organization, funding and community. Protestants are vastly superior when it comes to freedom to join or leave a denomination and fewer threats of being kicked out. Mormons need to be more tolerant and respect freedom more. We need a church that will not kick you, a Protestant strength, and a church that will be there for you financially and socially which is a Mormon trait. Personally I think Mormons will become more tolerant and the Protestants are incapapble of changing. I think the future is a kinder and gentler Mormon church.
Tim Wade said
Greg, thanks for the comment. Clearly you are right; the LDS Church and Protestants can learn from each other. However, I think you are only partially correct in your assessment of the Protestant Church’s willingness to change. I believe the Protestant Church is changing – it is breaking down into two well-defined camps. On the one side you have Fundamentalism; a practice that has all but reduced Christianity to a club governed by the strictest of rules – rule that are not always in accordance with the Word of God. This camp has members from all Protestant denominations, but is most evident among the Southern Baptists, and is slowly becoming evident among those who are leading the post modern “emergent” church. On the other side there is Tolerance. Fundamentalists fear Tolerance, because it can lead to the forsaking of Orthodoxy, and in fact sometimes does. Tolerance is what has led some denominations to openly accept homosexual clergy.
I personally take a middle of the road approach, adhering to Orthodoxy without jumping off the proverbial cliff into Liberalism. No doubt, there are those in the LDS Church who feel that these two camps exist within their own world as well. My hope is that as these two camps continue to move away from one another, a third camp will emerge, consisting of Christians willing to cross an ecumenical bridge in the name of Jesus Christ, and find common ground for the purpsoe of advancing the Kingdom of God.
Tim
Chris said
I’d like to answer the question “are Mormons better Christians?” The answer is a resounding “No!” But then, that’s not really a fair question to begin with. Are Mormons better at practicing their religion than say a Baptist, Methodist or some other Protestant? Perhaps. I really don’t have the statistics to make a rock solid statement. But, from what I’ve seen, Mormons are genuinely sincere about their beliefs and try their best to live according to the tenants of their faith. Of course, within any religion you are going to find exceptions to the rule.
With that being said, the word “Christian” has gotten so watered-down that practically ANYONE who claims to “follow Christ” ought to be called a “Christian”. So, it seems to me that we really ought to know just what does it mean to “follow Christ.” And, which “Christ” are we following? Unfortunately, not all “Christs” nor all “Apostles” and “Teachers” are proclaiming the truth. Are we to be judged by pseudo-Christians? I can’t seem to find that in my Bible!
Chris said
Let me ask you this Tim. If a religion (not pointing any fingers here) is based (at it’s very core) upon a lie, can that religion be considered “Christian”? Or, at the very least, from God? I think the obvious answer is “no.” So, if I examine ‘xyz’ religion and find compelling evidence that it is not based upon reality but rather upon the vain imaginations of a heretic, why on earth would I want to ignore those facts and embrace it’s adherents as fellow believers?
Tim Wade said
Christ, thank you for commenting.
If you will wade through the comments in my last post, you will see that in reply to Natasha I make a similar point to your own regarding building on a false foundation. My point however is inverted to yours, if I am reading you correctly.
It is my assertion that because the LDS Church regards the Bible as a flawed text, and the Bible, by the Power and Inspiration of the Holy Spirit asserts itself to be the Word of God Almighty who can not lie, then the entire Bible can not be trusted. Supposedly, Joseph Smith was able to correct the errors contained therein, but again, the Bible, preserved by the Holy Spirit, One greater than Joseph Smith, says no! Therefore, according to Joseph Smith, the Bible can not be trusted, and yet bases his religion – for lack of a better way to put it – on a flawed text. This means that Joseph Smith has built the LDS Church on the premise of a lie! What does this say about the church except that it too is a lie. Mind you, I did not come up with this argument. It is one of the first rules of logic.
To you and all who read these words, may I declare that the God of Heaven would have never allowed such a mistake to occur! On the other hand, it defies logic, and just simple common sense, to say that God could somehow preserve Christianity for 1800 years, then one day reveal Truth to Jospeh Smith, but somehow not be able to preserve the integrity of the Bible. What happened? Did God take a nap for 1800 years? Did His power run out like a dead battery?
Forgive me for ranting. I have been holding this in for a while. Thanks again for the comments.
Yours in Christ,
Tim Wade
Chris said
I appreciate your comments Tim. Personally, I have been a student (for lack of a better word) of Mormonism for the past 20 years. They have a rich history and culture but the thing that stands out about them (from other churches with as much, if not more, history and culture) is the way they embrace it (or at least the white-washed version of it). It is an enviable trait, to be sure. One that I wish more churches would emphasize and encourage their members to learn (meaning as members of the SBC, for example, we should know more about our own history and where we came from). Sadly, I find most members of my own denomination to be woefully ignorant and apathetic when it comes to learning about our Baptist heritage.
Kudos to you Tim for starting this Blog. I think you have a wealth of knowledge to share!
Natasha said
Tim.
I can understand your point about God not allowing anything to happen to the integrity of the Bible, it being so sacred. However, people have their agency and can do anything with it.
Using your logic, why did God let Jesus be abused? Why did he let prophets burn? Why did he let temples be burned? Why did he let the apostasy take place?
Because God covenanted to not take away our agency.
People have done heinous things in the name of the Bible. They have mistranslated it in word, from the pulpit. People used to be forbidden from owning a Bible. If the Bible is that important and sacred to God, why did he let THAT happen? If people were able to mistranslate it (or outright lie about its meaning) verbally WHILE it was not available in English text or available to the masses, how is that different than letting it be mistranslated in text? Either way, souls would be led astray and isn’t the worth of even one soul great in the eyes of God?
Joseph Smith did not build the church on a lie. Even if he built it upon principles of the Bible (which he didn’t really), he built it upon the true ones. Not the lies. There was still mostly truth in the Bible. Why could our church not be based on those? I’m sorry but your question and venting makes no sense to me. Just because the Bible has some things wrong in it doesn’t mean all of it is wrong.
Mark said
Sad. As usual the spirit of contention destroyed the kindness and good spirit of the article. I wonder why some of us can not acknowledge that there is goodness, kindness, love and devotion to Christ in ALL who love, worship and declare Him to be the Lord and Savior? Who was appointed arbiter and overseer of the faith to determine to whom the title of “Christian” should be applied or not?
Let it be the Lord who decides according to His righteous judgment and justice whom had demonstrated to be true disciple by the following of His way as appointed by Him. Let Him decides who shall be worthy to receive mercy, salvation and eternal life in the kingdom of God.
I love, praise and look forward to working shoulder to shoulder with ALL men and women of faith to bring the knowledge of Christ and salvation to the ends of the earth as He has commanded. I could care less what denomination or name they call themselves. By the fruits of their labors and the strength of their faith we will know, for all men are tried and tested by their devotion to His ministry.
Rusty Southwick said
Hi, Tim
Good discussion here. The subjects mentioned so far may eventually branch out into their own separate discussions…
I. Inerrancy of the Bible
You said:
The LDS Church regards the Bible as a flawed text.
This must be put in perspective. The LDS church regards the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We believe that it is the perfect word of God before the various translations. So essentially, we regard it to be about 99.5% correctly translated. The parts where it is incorrectly translated are typically not major issues, to my knowledge. The Joseph Smith Translation corrects some misinterpreted words or phrases for the most part.
As for the inerrancy of the Bible, note three other examples here within Christianity:
Orthodox – “God’s inspiration is confined to the original languages and utterances, not the many translations. While the Bible is treasured as a valuable written record of God’s revelation, it does not contain wholly that revelation.”
Methodist – “Inspired and inerrant in original manuscripts, and have been transmitted to the present without corruption of any essential doctrine.”
Reformed/Presbyterian – “The Bible is inspired. For some, that means the Bible is inerrant. For others, it means that even though the Bible is culturally conditioned and not necessarily factual or even always true, it breathes with the life of God.”
In light of the beliefs of other Christian churches, I wouldn’t make much of the 0.5% that the LDS church regards to be mistranslated. If someone feels that the verses comprising the Joseph Smith Translation are incorrect interpretations, then that would be something to address directly.
I would also say that the selected verses of the Joseph Smith Translation are much less egregious or ambitious than the various 20th and 21st century “new” translations within accepted Christianity today.
II. Sola Scripture
There is also no consensus, or even a near-consensus, among Christian denominations…
Accepted sources of doctrine:
Catholic – “Bible, church fathers, popes, bishops.”
Orthodox – “The Scriptures, both the Old and New Testaments, along with Sacred Apostolic Tradition.”
Reformed/Presbyterian – “Our standards of belief are to be found in the Bible and in the Church’s historic Confession of Faith.”
Anglican/Episcopalian – “The Scriptures, and the Gospels, the Apostolic Church and the early Church Fathers, are the foundation of Anglican faith and worship.”
Likewise, various Christian denominations accept different books for what they constitute as the Bible. There are accepted apocryphal books in some Christian religions. The Bible itself also lists other sacred writings which are not found in the Old or New Testaments. They were subsequently either removed or lost.
So to say that the Bible would contain all essential doctrine is not a flat Christian belief. Isolating the LDS church with that view doesn’t really present the whole picture.
III. Definition of Christian
Someone mentioned that one determination for whether a church was Christian or not would be if it teaches true principles. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy though. There is no objective way to determine in advance whether a church’s principles are true. If we already knew which church(es) was true, then we wouldn’t even be bothering with the notion of how Christian they were.
The following three paragraphs are what C.S. Lewis said in the introduction to Mere Christianity:
Far deeper objections may be felt – and have been expressed – against my use of the word Christian to mean one who accepts the common doctrines of Christianity. People ask: ‘Who are you, to lay down who is, and who is not a Christian?’ : or ‘May not many a man who cannot believe these doctrines be far more truly a Christian, far closer to the spirit of Christ, than some who do?’ Now this objection is in one sense very right, very charitable, very spiritual, very sensitive. It has every available quality except that of being useful. We simply cannot, without disaster, use language as these objectors want us to use it. I will try to make this clear by the history of another, and very much less important, word.
Now if once we allow people to start spiritualising and refining, or as they might say ‘deepening’, the sense of the word Christian, it too will speedily become a useless word. In the first place, Christians themselves will never be able to apply it to anyone. It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men’s hearts. We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge. It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense. And obviously a word which we can never apply is not going to be a very useful word. As for the unbelievers, they will no doubt cheerfully use the word in the refined sense. It will become in their mouths simply a term of praise. In calling anyone a Christian they will mean that they think him a good man. But that way of using the word will be no enrichment of the language, for we already have the word good. Meanwhile, the word Christian will have been spoiled for any really useful purpose it might have served.
We must therefore stick to the original, obvious meaning. The name Christians was first given at Antioch (Acts 11:26) to ‘the disciples’, to those who accepted the teaching of the apostles. There is no question of its being restricted to those who profited by that teaching as much as they should have. There is no question of its being extended to those who in some refined, spiritual, inward fashion were ‘far closer to the spirit of Christ’ than the less satisfactory of the disciples. The point is not a theological or moral one. It is only a question of using words so that we can all understand what is being said. When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian.
By that criteria, Lewis would consider the LDS church to be Christian.
IV. Changing Doctrine
As for the areas stated where you feel Protestants and the LDS Church each need to change, I would recommend that this subject be given its own post, because there’s a whole other philosophy behind that. If God is somehow supposed to become more lenient in modern times, then we need to discuss in depth why that is. As you alluded to, tolerance, forgiveness, and love are not synonyms. And I would argue that nowhere has God taught that sin should be tolerated per se. So that’s a discussion that could have its own wings, I think.
—Rusty
Are Mormons Better Christians? at Mormon Matters said
[...] http://timwade.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/are-mormons-better-christians/ [...]
Todd Wood said
Well, at first, I thought Tim that you were all about having a big ecumenical lovefest on this blog.
I am happy to see that you do pursue some serious bedrock heart issues about Christianity.
It seems like many of the emergents are rejecting foundationalism. I hope you don’t.
Tim Wade said
Mark,
I would not throw the baby out with the proverbial bathwater just yet. Iron sharpens iron, and sometimes things have to get a bit spirited from time to time to keep us from getting dull. Keep in mind also that we are only beginning to establish this dialogue and the boundaries are just now being set. I will admit that this blog is not for faint of heart, but so far I see no one being conentious.
Tim
Tim Wade said
Rusty,
Let me suggest some interesting reading for you. I have read these books and found the light they shed on the subject of Biblical inerrancy to be invaluable. The first book is Models of Revelation by Avery Dulles. Dulles is a Jesuit who developed the five models of revelation, models that are still considered standards for both Protetant and Catholic scholars. The second book is by Donald Bloesch, Holy Scripture: Revelation, Inspiration, and Interpetation. Bloesch is not my favorite author on the subject, but does a pretty good job providing a historical perspective on the Church’s approach to inerrancy. The third book is by one of the icons of modern theology and that is Norman Geisler. His book, simply titled Inerrancy. All three men have a deep are noted scholars and are deeply respected for their knowledge in the fields of study.
As for the rest of your comment, let me simply say we have embarked on a wealth of subjects that wil no doubt keep in talking for weeks to come. I greatly appreciate your comments and your suggestions.
Tim
Stephen M (Ethesis) said
“I am not stupid” — sad when we have to remind people of that.
But I enjoyed the essay. Sounds like something Ray Acuna would have written about both Mormons and Catholics that he met.
Rusty Southwick said
Thanks for those references, Tim. Are we talking about the efficacy of inerrancy itself, though, or are we talking about whether it’s a valid yardstick for gauging the Christianity/legitimacy of a specific denomination? You had offered a criticism against the LDS church for not teaching inerrancy, however I presented three examples of major Christian denominations which also do not teach inerrancy. I was curious to see how you’d apply the same argument to them.
Thanks,
Rusty
Tim Wade said
Rusty,
The question we are discussing has less to do with inerrancy and more about authority. The argument in favor of inerrancy has to do with plenary-verbal inspiration. I am not arguing plenary-verbal inspiration, though we could go there. Specifically, I am talking about God’s authority over the preservation of His word. The contradiction that I see is that Mormons claim God has power and authority over his word, but that it contained mistakes that only Joseph Smith was able to correct. To me this has never made sense.
Tim
backandthen said
I came to your blog through Mormon Matter.
This is nice of you to write this post.
As an LDS woman who has grown in the church, got excommunicated and came back my answer to the question is “NO” we are not better christian.
My feeling is that, as you pointed out, we still hold for important things that have been disregarded by other faiths but this is about teaching.
First I need to make clear about who I consider a christian. I consider a christian ANYONE who accept the bible as teaching and JESUS as the son of God and our Savior (muslims consider the Bible as valuable but Christ as being a prophet for Allah cannot have a son). I don’t care about the rest.
This being said I believe that God looks at hearts and soul to judge how much of a christian we really are.
Not being Heavenly Father I look at deeds to recognize a good or a better christian and I have seen Christlike lives in the Mormon church as much as outside.
I believe that this things that you talked about are teaching that enables us to be better christian than the kind of Christians we would have been without and it makes us accountable for our choices more than we would have without it.
I am not saying that you are not accountable ;o)
I am saying that these are like help on the road to avoid falling in the gap that is on both side of the path.
This is my point of view and it may be shared or not by other of my faith.
I just hope that I made my point of view clear and that there is no offense in what I have expressed.
JDDur said
Boy did I ever need to read this post today. I’ve spent much of the past few days having a Protestant “expert” tell me I was a liar and that he knew what my Church believes better than I do. I kept telling myself, “Not all Protestants are like this guy. Most of them are decent folks,” but given the abuse, those thoughts rang hollow. Thank you, Tim, for single-handedly restoring my faith in Protestant Christianity. I was right; you are decent folks. Very decent.
Tim Wade said
JD,
I have just spent the last hour chatting with a member of the LDS church who trusts denominations about as far as she can throw one. No doubt, we all have been hurt by someone who claims to be a well meaning child of God. History is full of horror stories. Sadly, those who pull away from their faith in the face of such enmity forget that the standard is the Lord Jesus Christ, and not the confused individual giving us grief. Don’t give up.
Tim
JDDur said
Well said, Tim. Thanks again for your kindness.
Rusty Southwick said
Tim, you said: “Specifically, I am talking about God’s authority over the preservation of His word. The contradiction that I see is that Mormons claim God has power and authority over his word, but that it contained mistakes…”
But I cited three other major Christian denominations which also state that the Bible contains mistakes. That’s what I’m getting at there. How do you account for those views too? Do you put the Orthodox, Methodists, and Presbyterians in the same boat as the LDS on this?
I’m just saying that there should be consistency in applying criticisms.
—Rusty
Source:
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/denominations_beliefs.htm
velska said
It’s certainly refreshing to find a post looking for the positive aspects of our differences.
For me, thinking in terms of “better” Christians is hard, but putting it the way you do – learning from each other – gives a new angle. After all, Shakespeare shared a word of wisdom considering this: “Every man is my superior, for I can learn from him”
Let’s learn from each other!
Michelle Glauser said
Wow, it’s great to see your point of view. Thanks!
Valoel said
It is easy to lose the magic when we only listen to our own voice. That is why I liked this article so much — it was from a perspective outside the LDS community. There is a lot the we in the LDS Church can learn from others. Maybe we do some things good too. We have a lot in common with people of all faith, especially if we choose to look at it that way.
Eric said
Good original post. As a Protestant-turned-Mormon, I feel there is a lot we can learn from each other, and I appreciate the spirit in which the post was written.
Just to clarify something about Church-owned businesses: To the best of my knowledge, most of the businesses the Church owns it owns to accomplish various aspects of its ministry more than as a money-making venture. For example, it owns various farming enterprises to help feed the needy. It owns Bonneville Communications in part to handle its broadcasting needs. It owns the Deseret News to publish its weekly digest of church news. It owns Deseret Book as a way of providing published materials to its members. There are profits from these businesses, but that doesn’t appear to be the main impetus behind them. (And, by the way, when the church owns for-profit businesses, they pay taxes and are subject to all the laws, including nondiscrimination provisions, that other businesses are.)
Nobody Special said
It is ironic that Christians in general argue for inerrancy, when the early Christian Church and most of the early Church fathers didn’t even use the Hebrew Scriptures. They used the Septuagint, or Greek version. Jesus and his apostles thought enough of the Septuagint to quote from it and make use of it. But it is the most flawed text of all, even according to the beliefs of current Christians, because it goes so far off in left field from the Masoretic text. If you Christians want to argue that your Bible is all there is, then you should argue that point. You should not argue from the standpoint of inerrancy. Because the Mormons will win every time in a debate of facts on this point. Because the scholars and all the facts actually back this up. You make yourselves a laughing stock among anybody that really knows anything about the facts. Christians and Jews have always had flawed texts. If you want to argue for your bible, argue on from the standpoint of authority of your bible. Don’t try to lecture us on lack of flaws. Because you are simply wrong.
Tim Wade said
Nobody,
Your point is well taken. And if you notice in other comments that is the very point I make. Persoanlly I am not inclined to believe in Plenary-verbal inspiration, which is why you will not see me use inerrancy as way of defending the Bible over the BoM. Thanks for the comment.
Tim
Love One Another « Irresistible (Dis)Grace said
[...] for any devious reason or anything, but I had read an article by him suggesting that “Mormons are better Christians” in certain distinct ways. And then as I read his blog, I saw that he talks about Mormons a [...]
Are Mormons Better Christians? « Working For Zion said
[...] December 19, 2008 by leahmcchesney A Blog Post from Tim Wade [...]
Katrina Marti said
Tim, I haven’t the time to read all the comments here, so maybe what I have to say has already been said. . .if so sorry for the repitition. From what I’ve seen however, I have a bit of a different take on it–the perspective of someone who has been on both sides of the fence.
Yes, I’m an ex-Mormon who is now a Christian. My family goes back to the beginnings of the Mormon church, and about 10 years ago I went from being a temple going, active Mormon to knowing Christ, and the power of His work in my life (and attending Christian churches)–and honestly the contrast couldn’t be bigger.
While I was LDS the focus of my life was on myself, on what I could do, and what I had to do to “please” God. I loved Jesus Christ, or thought I did anyway but didn’t really know the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus I knew was a far different character, a man who was better behaved than I, and further along in his progression towards becoming God. He was my older brother (as as Satan), and as such that’s kind of what I thought of him–like you would an older brother whose somewhat of a hero to you. And, my relationship to him was always based on my performance–had I done some good thing to please him (like wearing my sacred underwear faithfully, going to the temple, fulfilling my calling or job in the church, not smoking, drinking, etc., and more).
Since becoming a Christian I’ve come to know Jesus who IS God and is so amazing and awesome that I’m left without words when I think about Him. I honestly can’t describe Him–not that He can’t be described, but that my words seem puny and insignificant when I try. And, my relationship to Him is on such a different basis–it’s on the basis of a God who did all that needs to be done for my salvation, and who I am eternally grateful to, but not just grateful, but who I owe my very life to–in fact, He IS my life. And, of course because He is my life I do certain things–many things like I did as a Mormon–and many more things I wouldn’t have even considered as a Mormon, like giving up all the world has to offer to become a full-time missionary–devoting my life to reaching the lost.
But, my focus is far, far different. My focus is on the God of the Universe, and not on myself and what I can accomplish (I’m afraid if that was my focus I’d have gone home by now! :{ ). . . and what a difference that makes. I no longer serve a God who was once a man, and who wants me to learn to be a God myself, but instead serve a God who ALWAYS was God, and who loved me enough to do everything necessary for me to come to Him in faith, be adopted as His own dear daughter, and have free access to Him, and not only free access, but the right and priveledge to come into His awesome presence anytime–even when I’ve really messed up and to have the confidence that He’ll forgive me because He loves me, and loved me enough to die for me while I was STILL His enemy. . .
So, in the end, for me, I can see so clearly that there’s a wide, vast gap between us and them, and it’s not just in doctrine, it’s the difference between life, the Vinelife, or the life of a Christian who’s walking in a faith relationship with God–doing as He says, learning from Him, being corrected by Him, and walking in faith day by day as opposed to a religion that’s focused on man, on what man has to do, on what he has to acheive, and on what man can become with help from god of course. . .
It’s my sincere desire that people can see that difference. In my opinion it’s the difference between life and death. Feel free to write me if you have any further questions. I’d love to help you see, from an insiders perspective what it’s really like. . .
Tim Wade said
Katrina,
Thank you for your witness. You speak to issues that have not yet been addressed within this conversation that definately should be. Having never been a Mormon I can not speak to that side of your testimony, though I can say that I share your sentiment towards our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I look to the Mormon people as an example of committed devotion – devotion to God, family, community – that unfortunately sems to live less and less among Protestants. Yes, there are many like yourself — and I would hope I can somehow place myself in this category — who are “sold out” to Christ, because he is indeed our Lord and our God. I would love to hear from others who share your feelings.
Tim
Quintuplet Dad said
I just want to thank you for the post. I am a Mormon and I have always felt that there is a lot that the protestant churches could learn from us. At the same time, I have also learned good things from many of my Protestant and Catholic friends.
If people could look past the differences in doctrine, then there is a lot that could be gained.
Dropping By said
Thanks a million, Pastor Wade, for your kind words and insightful observations. My wife and I lived in Alpharetta, Georgia, for 16 years, and it was a little humorous to us that some of our neighbors, upon learning that we are happy, devout Mormons, would express shocked concern. But after getting to know us, we had several confide that clearly we — personally — were Christians, much to their surprise, but it was too bad about our church and all the other Mormons. They seemed to think we were some crazy exception, which is not true. I have often thought that if everyone were to just become acquainted with one typical, mainstream Mormon, a lot of these misconceptions would be cleared up.
Concerned Christian said
Don’t be deceived by these people, Pastor Wade. I was a mormon for many years. I attended the temple, served in many callings including a Branch President and counselor in a Bishopric, paid tithing, kept the mormon commandments, etc. I have done it all as a mormon. I am now a Christian attending a Baptist church. The mormon church is absolutely NOT Christian. There is a dark underbelly to mormonsim that you will not see that the mormon Church’s PR machine hides very effectively. You speak of family. Many mormon families have a shiny gloss in public but are miserable in private. I have seen it first hand. There is a dark side of abuse when it comes to mormon men. As the mormon church is patriarchal in nature, mormon men are much more prone to abuse of spouses and children – I have witnessed it first hand as a mormon church leader. If a mormon discovers the truth about the fraud of mormonism and leaves the church, oftentimes he is ostracized by his family. As far as garments, they are a means of pride for mormons to hold over less worth mormons. I can’t tell you how many times I have seen temple mormons lifted up in pride above non-temple attending mormons or non-mormons. Young men go on missions because they are manipulated into it by their family and church and made to feel they are less of a man if they do not do it. The mormon church has billions of $ a year coming in because they manipulate people into contributing 10% by threatening their salvation if they don’t. No tithing, then no temple, then no Celestial Kingdom. Pastor Wade, it pains me to see a man of your stature deceived by these people. DON’T DEFEND THE MORMON CHURCH. Many of the people are good but the organization is rotten to the core.
Concerned Christian said
Pastor Wade, why won’t you post my comment? I am a little disappointed. I have taught a class on mormonism at my church and feel people need to know the truth about this.
David in Ohio said
Tim
I greatly appreciate the article; I bring a different perspective to this subject because I am someone who left the evangelical Southern Baptist faith and joined the LDS faith 4 years ago. I personally experienced and witnessed all the things you mentioned in your article and am surprised how very few Protestants recognize the issues you discuss.
I was a life-long, Southern Baptist who accepted Christ when I was 19 years old, (I converted to the LDS faith at 40 years old and my parents, brother, and sister, are all still active Protestants). Just like my Protestant brethren, I too believe that Christ died for my sins, and it is only because of his atonement that covers my sins, that I can return to Heaven one day. That being said, I was disheartened to read Katrina’s comments because her story heightens a weakness we have in the LDS church that the Protestants do not face. In our LDS faith we place a lot of emphasis on works. We are always striving to better ourselves in the sense of becoming more and more Christ like in everything we do. While this generates many wonderful fruits (you discussed a few of them in your article), it can also allow LDS members to lose their focus on worshipping Christ and the importance of His Atonement if they are not careful, because our works are such a daily focus in our lives. However, I still believe the marriage of faith and works is more effectively portrayed (and in accordance with scripture) throughout my LDS faith than any other religion on the earth.
Even so, just as I hope my Protestant brethren can (and do) learn from the LDS faith, we too can learn from the Protestant faith by always maintaining a greater emphasis on Christ as the foundation for everything we do.
Thank you for your article
David
Tim Wade said
David, thank you for contributing to this conversation. As I read your comment I was reminded that we all work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The words of Paul from Romans 14:22 also come to mind : Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. What else can one say? God bless you.
Mormon Teens Are Better Christians said
The 2005 National Study of Youth and Religion published by UNC-Chapel Hill found that Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) youth (ages 13 to 17) were more likely to exhibit these Christian characteristics than Evangelicals (the next most observant group):
1. Attend Religious Services weekly
2. Importance of Religious Faith in shaping daily life – extremely important
3. Believes in life after death
4. Does NOT believe in psychics or fortune-tellers
5. Has taught religious education classes
6. Has fasted or denied something as spiritual discipline
7. Sabbath Observance
8. Shared religious faith with someone not of their faith
9. Family talks about God, scriptures, prayer daily
10. Supportiveness of church for parent in trying to raise teen (very supportive)
11. Church congregation has done an excellent job in helping teens better understand their own sexuality and sexual morality
. LDS . Evangelical
1. 71% . . 55%
2. 52 . . . 28
3. 76 . . . 62
4. 100 . . 95
5. 42 . . . 28
6. 68 . . . 22
7. 67 . . . 40
8. 72 . . . 56
9. 50 . . . 19
10 65 . . . 26
11 84 . . . 35
So what do you think the motivation is for the Evangelical preachers to denigrate the Mormon Church? You would think Evangelical preachers would be emulating Mormon practices (a creed to believe, a place to belong, a calling to live out, and a hope to hold onto) which were noted by Methodist Rev. Kenda Creasy Dean of the Princeton Theological Seminary, as causing Mormon teenagers to “top the charts” in Christian characteristics
Linda Soderquist said
I think that if we are ever going to work together for the common good, we need to set aside doctrinal issues. Your article makes the point that in spite of doctrinal differences, there is much can be appreciated about the way Mormons do things. While it’s flattering to hear the favorable comments about my religion, I hope that we can get past comparing the doctrine, congregations, missionary programs, humanitarian programs, the private enterprises or the financial strength of different religions.
I don’t what to even ask, much less answer the question “Are Mormon’s Better Christians?” (I prefer it to the question, “Are Mormon’s Christians?”
) Being “better” is about competition, hierarchy, elitism—all decidedly non-Christian ideals. It’s a provocative title and does entice the reader, but it is the wrong mindset. Let’s find a common ground and work together. There are so many people suffering in so many ways. We can work together to have better communities. We can love each other, appreciate each other’s strengths and respect our differences. That is what Jesus Christ wants us to do.
Arnel Divinegrace said
“Are Mormon’s better Christians”, “Are Mormon’s Christians”, as always to know if a tree is good we examine the fruit. I hope this best answers these questions.
Thanks for the nice blog Tim.
Lynn W said
This is a very interesting blog topic. I appreciate the fairness, for the most part, in critiquing my LDS faith. I haven’t heard any blatantly anti-Mormon remarks, as are so common just about any place on the web. Rather, I hear people looking for the good in other beliefs, seeking common ground, and wanting to understand.
I had a varied background, studied various religions and philosophies, and attended various churches. As I was growing up, I attended Lutheran, Seventh Day Baptist, and Presbyterian churches. Then, as a young adult I converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I loved it! I loved the people, the classes, my callings in Sunday school, missionary work, and the teachings of the Restored Gospel. I was married by then, and was sealed to my husband in the Temple.
One thing that didn’t sink in back then was the importance of keeping covenants, and of keeping marriage sacred. Six children later, we got divorced. Eventually, I left the church.
I spent over a decade on a spiritual quest, studying New Age philosophies, along with Christian mysticism, and charismatic Christianity. But, as interesting as it all was, and as much as I enjoyed my search, something was missing.
Eight years ago, at the age of 53, I found the missing pieces. I found Jesus again, in the teachings of the Restored Gospel, in the pages of my favorite book: The Book of Mormon, and in living the life of a devoted Latter-day Saint Christian. Since coming back to the Church, my life has been changed, and I am no longer the person I was in the dark days of the past. It hasn’t always been an easy climb back up the hill, but Heavenly Father and Jesus are always there when I fall.
Tim Wade said
Lynn, yours is a powerful testimony, indeed, and the reason why I am not willing to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. There may be a great number of differences between Mormons and Protestants, but one thing both of us have in common is that we find peace in the God of our faith, and that can not be discounted. I too went through a similar quest as the one you mention years ago, and like you found peace in my original faith. Thnak you for your coments. May the Lord continue to bless you and heal you.
Tim
Tim Wade said
Are Mormon teens better Christians? I remember as a kid in high school this one girl – straight blond hair, pretty, but never wore make up, had four siblings, made good grades, and was always reading her Book of Mormon for crying out loud. She was the one girl I would have loved to gone out on a date with, but alas, I was Baptist, and our worlds miles apart. Which is why she went on to college, married, and has a succesful family. I on the other hand dropped out of high school, went on a drinking binge, smoked like a freight train, and sowed my wild oats. Are Mormon teens better Christians? You’ll get no argument out of me on that one.
Tim Wade said
Linda, you raise a good point. Clearly the doctinal differences between the Mormons and Protestant will not change. Such matters are out of hands except in how we individually apply our faith in God. I believe you are right in that if we need to set aside our doctrinal differences, and work together to build the lives of those in the world around us through humanitarian missions, private enterprises, and other programs of outreach. I think if we did that, we would find that none of us are all that different. Great comment. Thanks.
Tim
Linda Soderquist said
Tim, your description of your early adulthood is touching. Lynn also, I appreciate knowing your experience. Some of us end up on a hard road. In hindsight maybe we would have made different choices and saved ourselves some heartache. Nevertheless, I hold fast to the idea that if we live the commandments all things can work for our good. Tim, no doubt there are things that you learned from your experience that help you now to minister to others.
I had a child when I was almost forty. I was shattered when my deepest fears were realized. He is mentally handicapped. The good news is that he survived at difficult birth (Apgar of 1), and later periods of frequent nausea and vomiting that required 75 hospitalizations over a five year period. Though he won’t ever be able to manage his life without help, he is A pretty happy person, pretty amazing and funny. It wasn’t a road that we would have chosen, but we have learned so much. We are all handicapped to some degree, it will be such a release in the next life when we are free to be our highest and best selves. I look forward to meeting his true selve in the next life.
As for doctrine, I love a good discussion. I’d like to chime in occasionally. Since your blog was featured on Mormon Times.com you should have an avalanche of mail!
Linda
Tim Wade said
Linda, there is one more thing that we have in common. My wife had fraternal twin girls by her previous marriage. They are twelve. However, one of them was born with encephalia, and barely survived her birth. Then when she was four, she had a shunt revision surgery that went very wrong. Thirty minutes after the surgery she sufferered a grand mal seizure. The drainge tube was kinked and 30 CCs of fluid had backed up on her brain. She was in a coma for over a month. Today she lives in a special home where she can receive around the clock medical care. She spends her days in her wheelchair, and her nights in a caged bed. We too have spent many nights in hosptials. Truly life is too short, and the needs of humanity too great for God’s people to divided over interpretive disagreements in matters of faith.
Doug in Washington said
Pastor Wade,
As a Mormon, I found your column a breath of fresh air during a year in which anti-Mormon sentiment received prominent publicity.
I don’t really like the question, “Are Mormons better Christians?” Comparisons like that are inherently dangerous. I prefer the question, “Are Mormons and Conventional Christians Brothers and Sisters?” (I’m not sure “Conventional” is the right label, but you probably know what I mean.) There are significant irreconcilable differences in theology between Mormons and Protestants and Catholics. But should that prevent us from treating each other as brothers and sisters? Wouldn’t the Savior, who taught us who our neighbor was, rather have us focus on how we can better appreciate and support each other?
As a Mormon I am deeply appreciative of Baptists who in times have past played a prominent role in establishing religious liberty in this country. I also love the music of conventional Christians. Who can love the Savior without being moved to tears by “Amazing Grace”? I also love the spirit of black gospel music.
Thank you for your Christian attitude as exemplified in this article.
Natasha said
Tim, GUESS WHAT.
My friend Jen checked out your blog the other day. The first post was your From Protestantism With Love and so she read that. When we were speaking about your blog on the phone (there are a lot of issues in your posts and comments that prompt good discussion) she said that she had a theory. She said that everyone she has ever known who spoke about Mormons as being exclusive or not loving enough, particularly people who are somewhat interested in it, had a crush on someone who was Mormon who didn’t reciprocate the attention. She theorized that you liked a girl in high school or college who was Mormon and wouldn’t date you because you weren’t.
I just came to your blog to get a link to this post for my blog post today (which you will find very interesting) and saw these new comments here.
I thought, Oh, Jen– you saw what he wrote about the pretty blonde girl! You cheat! Then I noticed the date of your comment was just yesterday: two days after Jen and I had spoken.
Isn’t it interesting that she was able to guess this right away? I find it positively fascinating.
Also, you and Jude have a lot in common.
Tim Wade said
Natasha, Probably anything I say at this point will get me into trouble, so let me just say that Jen is very insightful, and leave it at that. As always, you bring a smile to my heart with your timely comments.
Natasha said
Jen laughed when I phoned her about the comment and squealed with delight at her own “genius”. It was very amusing.
As if I “always” bring a smile to your heart. Admit it– sometimes you’re grumpy, aren’t you, Timmy? Huh? Come on, admit it… You get grumpy with me. You do-oooo! ;-P
Tim Wade said
In many ways, Natasha, you are the pesky kid sister I never had. Yes, you drive me nuts at times, but since you’re family, that makes it okay.
Philip Baker said
Tim,
God bless you for both your Christ-like tolerance and willingness to look beyond labels and bigotry. I am a convert when 16 years of age. In 1955 my father allowed the Mormon (nickname) missionaries into our home only because they were Americans. As an Australian air-force man fighting the Japanese invasion in New Guinea, the Yanks fighting alongside were very hospitable to him. He recalls being invited to Thanksgiving in the middle of the steamy jungle, sharing a cold beer and ice-cream with his US mates. When these young missionaries came into our home, we felt a wonderful spirit, they seemed Christ-like in their attitude to us and our friends. Although we didn’t join the Church at that time , some years later, after being touched by attending a Billy Graham Crusade, my mother invited the missionaries back, as they were visiting our neighbours. This was in 1962. We were baptised, and when I was 19 I was called to serve a 2 year mission to Southern California and Arizona. I consider these years as very special, as my companions and I called many to Christ and we witnessed (over the subsequent years) the wonderful changes to many , confirming the changes for good that the Atonement can bring to each of our lives. I even remember pushing my bike, in the heat of the day, up Camelback Mountain, to to Senator Barry Goldwater’s home, to present him a Book of Mormon, and and to extend my father’s thanks for the US soldiers who assisted Australia to retain freedom. I look back on my childhood Baptist sunday school attendance with gratitude. Our (UK) Baptist friends now seem more tolerant of us , hopefully as they recognise our sincere desire to have Jesus and His teachings active in our day to day life. My IBM career took me all over the world, and wherever I go, I know I have family in the truest sense of brothers and sisters in Christ. I am sure you find the same. Yes, sincere members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are Christian, both in doctrine and deed. I am grateful for my active and dear friends like Rev Wes Hartley, Archbishop Barry Hickey Hickey and Rabbi Shalom Coleman, who may well disagree with some minor doctrinal aspects, but are still Christ-like in their love for me and tolerant of my faith. God bless you Tim. PHILIP BAKER , Perth Western Australia
Robert said
Tim,
I came to your site because of Natasha’s aforementioned post. I do find it interesting how well she nailed your reasons for having issues. I grew up Methodist and was never taught to hate Mormons, or even to notice them. I simply didn’t have a negative perspective of them. The first girl I dated happened to be Mormon, and I found her to be an excellent example of a Christian woman and I appreciated that example throughout my future dating years. We did break it off because of religious differences but she and I remain friends (as do her husband and I and my wife and her) to this day.
I am curious, though, in reading your original post (a complete aside) what beliefs in the Bible you are referring to that keep you from believing in the Book of Mormon. What in the Bible excludes another testament of Christ (I’m curious for your response)?
Jeff said
Tim,
Thank You for your fair assesment of Latter Day Saints. I came to appreciate the hardships of the early Christians as an LDS teenager growing up in Prattville, Alabama. I would occasionally go tracting (proselyting) with our ward missionaries in the Prattville Area. On one occassion we were physically persued by a man claiming to be a Baptist Minister and we had to make a hasty exit for our safety. On another, upon meeting some new friends and introducing myself to their mother was asked if I go to Church. My reply was “Yes Ma’am”. She then asked which Church I go to and I told her. Her teeth clenched together and her eyes norrowed as she gathered her Children in her arms and hurried them inside. In a moment of confusion I spun about to see whether it was a Bear or a Mountain Lion that was about to attack. When I realised there was no such threat she cowled “You’re gonna Burn in Hell!!” I was 14. The stories in the New Testement of the persecution of the original followers of Christ took on new meaning and I wondered, “have these people who are so concious of their Christianity even read the New Testement?”. I know that these were probably individuals who in no way represent their faiths, but I pray that whatever false information is being distributed about my faith that would make people so rabid will someday be replaced by a prayerful attempt to understand it.
Tim Wade said
Robert, to be comepletely honest with you, there is not one single verse in the Bible I can give you that prevents me from believing in the Book of Mormon. Having said that, let muddy the waters a bit. I do not agree with some of the Mormon interpretations of Christian doctrine – specifically, original sin, the Trinity, and the purpose for Christ’s atoning sacrifice. Interpretation of the latter may more a bit subjective though, I will admit.
These three doctrine,s as I understand them according to the Bible, are an integral part of my life, and serves as the basis of my understanding with regard to who I am in relationship to my Savior, Jesus. Having said thus, I will admit that I can look at the Bible and see how Mormon interpretation came about. I do not agree with it, but can not deny it. In addition to these positions on doctrine, I also believe in a closed canon. Having studied the history of the church from before the time of Christ to the present I see no need for further revelation of God. I believe that He has presented himself in His fullness through the scriptures contained in the Bible. All this, however is my opinion based on my 33 years as a Christian and a twenty plus years student of religion and human nature. This is my relationship with Christ, and I do not expect it to be anyone elses. Thanks for the question.
Tim
Tim Wade said
Jeff, people who are insecure in their faith attack their brothers and sisters in Christ. This is one of the reasons why I believe in original sin. Ever since the fall of man, people have been trying to build themselves up by climbing over someone else’s back . Prior to the fall of man, Adam and Eve’s identities were in their Creator, God, but with their sin came the loss of that identity. Ever since, we in our humanity have been struggling to reclaim that identity. Only by identitfying ourselves with Christ can our lost relationship with our Heavenly Father be restored. For those who have yet come to the fullness of this reality, and have made their church, their education, their job, whatever, their identity, there will still be the tendency to push the other guy down because everything outside that false identity is considered a threat. And whe faith is threatened, the weak attack.
Thanks for the adding to the conversation. Great points.
Tim
Jeff said
Tim,
Please don’t consider this an attempt to convert you to Mormonism, but regaurding the need for modern Revelation, I find that certain issues or circumstances of our times require a theological clarity that the Bible can’t always address because these events are unprecedented. Take poverty for example. Poverty has existed in the World since Adam and Eve denied themselves sanctuary in the Garden of Eden. Since the time of Christ we have been admonished to give liberally to the poor and needy and that is very well covered in the Bible. However, recently new trends in government have sprung up in which money is taken from one person and given to another person without any requirement to improve his or her situation. This robotic form of charity robs both parties of a God given gift. On the part of the Donor Gods gift of free will is taken away, on the part of the recipient the gift of strength from adversity suffers and often hope is diminished.
In a perfect World most of us know that it would be better to have Faith based programs take care of those who cannot help themselves, because certain improvements could be expected of the beneficiaries so they wouldn’t breed generation after generation of recipients. However, how many of us have been stopped dead in a political debate about Government run welfare because the seemingly all powerful debate tactic, usually fired from the mouth of a non-believer, known as “What would Jesus Do?” or “Jesus said this or Jesus did that”. How many of us have been un-able to respond effectively to that charge.
The Bible as a historical record does little to address this modern struggle and leaves a void in how to properly address this issue in a Christian way. This is were modern Revelation sets us free. A revelation was given through Joseph Smith in the Doctrine & Covenants warning the rich and poor alike. This revelation clarifies the responsibilities of both the haves and have nots. This revelation follows:
D&C 56, 16-18
16 Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls; and this shall be your lamentation in the day of visitation, and of judgment, and of indignation: The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and my soul is not saved!
17 Wo unto you poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men’s goods, whose eyes are full of greediness, and who will not labor with your own hands!
18 But blessed are the poor who are pure in heart, whose hearts are broken, and whose spirits are contrite, for they shall see the kingdom of God coming in power and great glory unto their deliverance; for the fatness of the earth shall be theirs.
Another example would be on Marriage. It seems that there is alot of confusion and mis-interpretation of the Bible when it comes to the Sacred Bond of Marriage. In 1995, during General Conference, The Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley was given a revelation to be titled “The Family: A Proclamation to the World”. This revelation was given just before a massive political effort was mounted to change the definition of Marriage. We all know the story from there, however this Revelation warned of the political storm that was brewing and when the time came to act in defense of the Sacred Institution of Marriage, LDS congregations were ready to help. A copy of this Revelation was presented to President Clinton at the height of the Monica Lewinsky Scandal. My point in all of this is that the Devil is constantly devising new ways to infect us, like never ending Computer Viruss we need to keep our virus definitions current or we will become infected. This is why a Modern Prophet and Modern Revelation are important to us.
The Family: A Proclamtion to the World
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html
Robert said
The problem of a “closed canon” is two-fold: 1) which Bible is closed and 2) what about the various books mentioned in the Bible that aren’t in the Bible (such as Enoch)?
As for the Trinity, were you aware of the great debate about that when it was “decided” by the Church that the Trinity would be followed? Again, I grew up Methodist and never realized what people meant by the Trinity – I only found out a few years ago and was shocked, quite frankly. Considering God, Christ, and the Spirit to be one entity makes no sense to me at all.
As for the atonement and original sin, I’m not clear on what you think is different between Mormons and Protestants. Thanks for answering, though. It’s always interesting to see people’s perspectives.
Tim Wade said
Jeff, I like the points you made about giving. I wonder how many people ever stop to think about how inappropriate giving does indeed diminish hope. One thing I would like to encourage you to do is take some time to study the Bible, especially the parts about money. The Bible talks about money more than any other subject, and does a very good job addressing poverty. While reading the three verses you cited, not less than fifty or sixty verses from the Bible came to mind. Were it me doing the study, I would start with the book of Ecclesiastes, back up to Proverbs, and then read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chapters 5 and 6. If you have a good study Bible with references you will be well served to follow them and take note of how they fit within the context of the referring text. It’s a real fun study if you’re serious about helping people. Thanks again for commenting.
Tim
Tim Wade said
Robert, I confess that my answers to your questions were not the best. That is why this blog is a dialogue. Stick with me and I assure you I will speak in greater detail concerning the points you raise here.
Robert said
The tone of this post goes along nicely with something Christ once said: A house divided against itself cannot stand. He was repudiating his critics who suggested he was of the devil. He knew that good works could not be done in the name of evil. That is why the Book of Mormon would be an awfully foolish tool for the devil to be involved in, since it mentions Christ, his good works, his atonement, and his love constantly throughout its pages.
And as you seem to be saying, fellow Christians who stand against each other simply set the stage for evil to triumph.
Geoff B said
Pastor Wade, thank you for your nice comments on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For critics of the church, I would say one important thing: “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matthew 7:20). Are the fruits of the LDS church positive or negative? I would say most Christians would call their fruits positive, just as you have commented here. Does this mean that all Baptists have to accept everything about the LDS church? Not by a long shot. But I think a good first step would be to acknowledge the positive fruits, just as I acknowledge the many positive fruits of many religions, including Baptist Christianity.
Bob said
Tim,
Thank you for your comments on Mormonism. It has been fun to read the comments.
A merry Christmas to all!
Bob
a-g said
You can call yourselves “christians” as much as you want.
You’re unsaved and if you die in your mormon lies you will go to hell.
Repent and obey today!
Robert said
Tim,
I just noticed the part of this post about starting a “social enterprise” to help the church. As I am preparing to go back for a Ph.D. focused in entrepreneurship, I can tell you most researchers feel that normal business already do a lot of what a pure social enterprise would do, the difference is they run a for-profit operation and give part of the earnings to help the community (much like tithing). In any event, you might like to contact the social entrepreneurship center at Duke (Fuqua’s center for it, if you want, I’ll try to find a link) which might actually be in your area. They may have some ideas for you. Just an fyi there. Good luck.
Tim Wade said
Thanks for the tip, Rob. I have in fact already made contact with the folks at Duke about a year ago. Nothing more than a brief education came out of the emails I shared. However, I am still exloring many different social enterprise.
Robert said
UNC-Chapel Hill has a similar foundation, from what I saw. Kenan-Flagler Business School there.
Tim Wade said
Thanks, Robert. I’ll check them out. By the way, I finally got a chance to check out your websites. You have a lovely family. God bless.
Robert said
Those pictures are fairly dated. My third is due any day (three weeks is the official due date). My oldest is four and my son is two. They’re great. Check out my wife’s blog for more current pictures: attachedparent.blogspot.com.
Thanks.
The difference between life and death : Mormon Coffee said
[...] article written by Baptist pastor Tim Wade titled, “Are Mormons better Christians?” Originally posted on Pastor Wade’s own blog on December 2nd, Katrina found it republished on the [...]
Robert said
I read the post above from “Mormon Coffee” and vaguely recall it being posted on the original post here. I respect that the author at least was generally respectful in tone and description of the differences she sees between her former faith and her present one. I find it unfortunate that she felt the LDS Church focuses on self so much, or that we are not called upon to give up ourselves to follow the Lord (as she feels she does now). I know someone people have a different experience of our faith, and it’s always a little sad when people come away feeling the way she does. I wish her well in her missionary efforts. We do have many full-time missionaries, both young and old, and we have general authorities who have “given up all” when they accepted that responsibility. Unlike ministers serving full-time paid positions (not being critical of ministers, just drawing a comparison), the general authorities relinquish all their worldly posessions (homes, cars, finances, etc.) to the church and receive in return a small stipend (which does not come from tithing) to live on, a car to drive (a friend of mine who worked on their cars said they got two choices of very basic cars), and a very basic place to live. Some of these brethren have given up sizable fortunes, but they did so lovingly, as they enjoy the chance to serve the Lord in the way they do. Most members of the church have jobs to provide for their families while serving in various callings for no pay, but nothing about the Church organizations strikes me as “focused on self”. I can see the idea of self improvement is rampant in the gospel and in our teachings of it, but much of that self improvement tends toward helping and serving others, or at the very least working to grow closer to our Heavenly Father through prayer and study of his word. Those attitudes and teachings seem quite similar to the best members and best teachings found among the other Christian churches, in my experience as a Methodist for more then twenty-four years. Again, I commend the author of that post for her generally respectful tone. I just wish she had understood the gospel our church teaches in the way I do, and the way so many I know in the Church do.
Eye said
Tim as a Christian minister I do not get you. Mormon’s who believe in the ‘mormon god” and “mormon jesus” believe in a created being. In the Christian faith God nor Jesus are created, but ETERNAL. This is what separates Mormon’s from being Christians. Yes I know lots of “nice” Mormon people as I know allot of “nice” atheists, being nice and following “rules” does not make one a Christian. If one has the wrong “god” and “jesus” it does not matter how ‘good” one looks or acts. Being a “good person” does not make you a Christian. This I am afraid is something that Mormon’s are confused with, they claim they are Christians just like you or me because we share many of the same moral values. When a Mormon says this to me , how sad I am for them, for they are so off the mark.
Yes Mormon’s read the bible, though with dark tinted glasses. if they were to remove the scales from their eyes they would see they are not “worthy” now nor anything they ever do will make them “worthy” of the sacrifice that Jesus did on the cross for each and everyone of us. Mormons do not even understand the cross or they would not hide it in their lives.
I write this because I to was enchanted with the LDS people and their life style. That is until I found out who their god and jesus really are. How stressed they are wondering “am I doing enough” and following blindly their leaders, questions are not welcome.
I will take the real Christian Church, The church of Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior with all it’s faults and problems over the fake church of the Mormon’s any day ,any time.
Thank you for your time.
Tim Wade said
Eye:
If you read this article thinking me to be enchanted with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then I can see your confusion. However, I am in no way enchanted with the Mormons -religion in general, yes, Mormons specifically, no.
As I have said throughout this blog, I wrote the article Are Mormons Better Christians? with a Protestant audience in mind. I did not set out to achieve what has almost become a cult following- no pun intended. If the truth be known, I wanted to: 1. Make Protestant Christians a little angry with me by calling Mormons Christians, knowing that they would not agree with the term; and 2. Bring attention to the fact that by and large the Mormon community is doing “the work of the ministry” better that those who claim to be the true church.
As I said in the article, and other posts, I do not share doctrinal beliefs with the Mormons at almost any level. On the other hand, I can not deny Mormons their right to interpretation. I admit that what they believe is a far cry from any form of Orthodox Christianity, but when compared to all the other whacked out crap that has worked its way into Protestant belief, any honest person can not deny the plausibility of the Mormon interpretation. Does God have a body? You and I say, “Heck NO! But where in the Bible does it preclude that He does not? Where in the Bible does a body preclude eternality in light of the fact most theologians agree that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father this very moment in a glorified eternal body? To deny the plausibility of God having an eternal body like Jesus, or like the one you and I will have throughout eternity, is to elicit a double standard.
Again, I am not Mormon, but I am also not stupid. I see double standards all throughout Christianity. I have two degrees, one in Bible and one in Religion, and believe me when I say that I know a little bit about this subject. Human consctructs fill our Protestant faith, and yet for some strange reason, the Church doesn’t seem to have a problem with them. However, they do have a problem with the Mormons doing the same thing. All I am trying to do is get a few people to wake up and see the reality that you can have it both ways, but it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, and does nothing to advance the Kingdom of God.
Respectfully,
In the name of The Lord Jesus Christ, my Lord and my God in whose atoning blood I believe,
Tim Wade
Robert said
Tim,
Once again, I appreciate your willingness to respect our belief system. I may have somehow missed posting this article on my blog, and if so, I am sorry, but I wanted to mention a couple of verses from it here, since you brought up God having a body again:
http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/GodHaveBody.pdf
Exodus 33:20-23 – 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt asee my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Now, of course, you as a Trinitarian would say “that was the body of Jesus!” I suppose. You’d be right, it is Christ teaching Moses here. Still, what about this verse:
Ezekiel 1:26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
Ezekiel saw Heavenly Father on his throne in Heaven – and he looked like a man. To me, that is enough. Just those two verses make it clear the Bible teaches that God has a body. The rest of the article takes on various criticisms (one even you employed) and does so quite ably.
So thanks for letting us have our interpretation. And thanks for standing against such harsh ones yourself in hosting this blog. I have enjoyed the discourse greatly. As for Eye, I know he condemns my church, and I feel for him. It is, after all, not any person on this Earth whose job it is to judge the rest. That is the job of Christ alone. I don’t condemn anyone. I may disagree with their sins, but I don’t condemn them as people. I don’t want that job.
Glenda said
Tim,
I have been studying Mormon beliefs for years after becoming dissatisfied with just turning people away from my door who needed so badly to hear about Jesus. I have read many books authored by former Mormons. I also “lurk” when I can on the Mormon Coffee website, because running a business and the daily care of my young adult, developmentally delayed daughter prevents much actual participation. From what I can surmise, the main result of Mormon attempts at adding to the Scripture has been that few of them know what was historically taught as truth in their organization, since their “truth” is constantly changing. Furthetmore, they can have little confidence that what is being currently taught in their organization will not change, possibly radically, in the years to come.
As to their being better “Christians,” I cannot even imagine that your playing “devil’s advocate” in that manner will accomplish something good in the lives of the Christians you hope to provoke to a better “walking out of their faith” or in the lives of Mormons who need so desperately not to have their doctrine of salvation earned by works seemingly applauded.
I am presently reading a book entitled, THE CASE FOR CHRIST, by Lee Strobel. The chapter describing the crucifixion of Jesus has caused to rise up within me more strongly than ever a deep gratitude for the price that Jesus paid for me. I cannot conceive of describing Jesus as the brother of Lucifer, or as one who attained Godhood, or as needing human help to atone for some sins.
I recommend the following websites in relation to the question covered by some of your commentors; namely, ‘Does God have a body?”
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-physical-body.html and http://www.answersingenesis.org/about.
Ed Clinch said
I enjoyed this article. As a life long Latter day Saint (parents are converts due to missionaries two years before my birth) I was interested as to your perspective and words about my faith.
I was impressed to make a comment on your first point about marriage, or in this case LDS Temple marriage. The covenant does not start on the altar. It begins with our upbringing and chastity and virtue as children.
We normally get baptized at age 8, as I did, and how we cleave to that Godly covenant in the name of Jesus leads us to bigger and greater covenants as an adult.
I was 29 when I finally got married to my 26 year old wife, a life long faithful LDS girl from California. We both had lived a combined 55 years of virtue and chastity covenanted to the Lord PRIOR to our covenants of marriage on the altar of God to each other.
After 8 years and 4 children, do you think that our marriage has a better chance than other believers in Christ in name only, in our own faith or in other denominations or with non-believers?
I hope and pray that I can honor my marriage covenants with my wife and God always. Jesus has so blessed me!
Also, my temple garments helped me survive 10 years as single man without falling into breaking the commandments of God. They are a physical reminder and protection from what the Enemy would most wish to destroy: my virtue. Now they are a perfect reminder of fifelity towards God and my family, of whom I am the head.
God bless you and your walk in truth, Brother Wade.
I would love to hear what you say about the doctrine and words of the Book of Mormon, compared to the Holy Bible. I love both.
Peace and keep on blogging with faith in Christ.
Your brother in Christ Jesus, Ed.
Ed Clinch said
Man, I love this whole topic and all the points made! Some people have different ideas for sure, some of which I believe are inaccurate.
I have not read all the comments, but let me add this: as I understand it, Jesus is our Advocate with the Father. Because of His atoning sacrifice for all of us, he will defend us and our imperfections to the Father based on our acceptance and willingness to follow Him and His Gospel of Grace, Mercy and the blood He willingly shed for us, those that are His and covenanted with Him through baptism.
Jesus is Savior of all mankind, and the purposes of the Liar and Devil is to convince us that this is not so. And what of the Church of Jesus Christ?
We must be ever diligent, which is another reason why I love this topic and the intents of this blog. We search for Jesus and His fruits every day.
Blog on.
Tim Wade said
Ed, thank you for the encouraging comments. It is exciting to know that even after a month, the Lord is still using this post to exhort and motivate His Church. If you read the comments interlaced throughout this blog you will see some of my beliefs about the BoM and the Bible. In a nutshell, you will find that while I do not subscribe to the BoM – primarily because I see no need for it, and partly out of ignorance of its content – I can not completely disregard its claim to scripture, if for no other reason than principle alone. Feel free to browse around and ask me anything. If can answer it, I will. While some people seek to debate on this website, that is not its purpose. What we have going on here is a dialogue, and everyone is welcome to chip their two cents.
In Christ,
Tim
Robert said
Glenda,
In coming to your faith about the Bible, how much of the Jewish writings about Jesus being an evil sorcerer did you read? Or perhaps you read the writings of atheists who attack the possibility that God exists before accepting it? Maybe just some of the Jesus seminar’s work showing that Christ performed no miracles?
That definitely seems reasonable, if the entirety of your knowledge used to reject the Book of Mormon and the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints comes from critics and former members.
I pointed out the part about the Jews because Strobel cites it as evidence for Christ’s miracles. They had to acknowledge he performed them, after all, because otherwise their denial would have been mocked by those who knew the truth. Strobel’s book does an excellent job of presenting the factual support for the Bible from many disciplines – psychology, archaeology, and so on. His second book, Case for Faith, was not nearly as compelling. I gave them away for Christmas the year before I joined.
Two things, though, about Case for Christ. First, Strobel put in a letter from the Smithsonian that shows what they used to say about the Book of Mormon. At the time of his publication, though, they had already quit sending out that letter in favor of one that acknowledged they didn’t do studies based on the Book of Mormon, but did not state there was no evidence (as the former letter did). The second point is that his logical leap that because the Smithsonian said it, there clearly is no evidence, is categorically false. There are evidences for many components in he Book of Mormon, in fact. Still, evidence is not what is needed for faith. It clearly is what persuaded Mr. Strobel, and I am glad for him to believe in Christ over his former atheism. He simply is mistaken to ignore the further evidence for the Book of Mormon, which is quite as compelling as much of the evidence he presents for the Bible.
I invite you to check out http://FairLDS.org/ for many articles compiling the evidence. Also the FairLDS.org videos on YouTube present many of these evidences. Evidence is not what you require, though, I suspect.
Robert said
Ed and Tim,
I agree, this site has been great for sharing perspectives and opening eyes. I’ve enjoyed it so far.
Tim Wade said
Glenda,
I have to admit that you are probably right when you say that playing “devils advocate” will not accomplish much, if indeed anything. Still, people are reading what I write, which has to account for something. The page hits and the comments support it. Admittedly most of the interest is around a single article. I sometimes feel like the rock band that had that one big hit, and a couple that cracked the top forty – but only one big hit. Obviously the Beatles and Elvis did not change the world of music with just one song. I doubt with my one big hit I will emerge from history a theological icon. In the coming days I plan on doing some different things that will hopefully prove to be a bit more stirring.
As for Lee Strobel’s book, I must say that I have heard so much about it, but have not read it yet. It is on my reading list along with about a couple hundred other books. Also, thanks for the links. I will definately check them out.
One point you brought up is especially significant and that is the ever-changing beliefs of the LDS Church, and other offshoots of traditional Christianity for that matter. I have to say that while the Mormons have not made changes the way the Jehovah’s witnesses have, what changes have been made certainly can not be ignored. I am certain that Robert already has provided a link to a website or two that will explain many of these changes. Still, anytime that a religious group shifts position on doctrine it is because of one of two reasons; either God was wrong, or man was wrong. The Protestant Reformation comes to mind.
Thank you again for your input. I look forward to hearing more from you.
In Christ,
Tim
Robert said
I would posit a third alternative to why doctrine changes: God has brought forth something new. In Abraham’s time, it was perfectly normal for men to have many wives, or at least more than one. This need probably sprang at least partially from a need to grow the tribe, since men can father multiple children at once but only one (or in those rare cases of twins or triples, two or three) at a time over nine months. Another reason might be somewhat like the reason plural marriage was implemented in the early LDS Church: women were provided for and protected. Only a select few men were ordained to have multiple wives, and they did so for the protection of those women. When the need for such protections were gone, the Lord apparently returned to the policy of one man and one woman.
The Lord commands his people to follow him according to his need, but also somewhat according to their situation. I am not saying God is a pragmatist. More he understands that some things need to be accomplished in certain ways.
I think the “changes” most people refer to regarding doctrine are rarely changes to doctrine at all, though. I have seen some completely misrepresented ideas as to what was considered doctrine (e.g., the Adam/God theory) but simply never was. I have also seen instances where certain leaders believed certain things but did not report those beliefs as doctrine. They simply put forth their ideas about certain things and were wrong. I know that the priesthood limitations that existed until 1978 have been held against the church for many years, but the priesthood was held closely by the Jews and still is to this day. One could easily point out that more men hold the priesthood in our church than in any other on a percentage basis.
But I don’t mean to sound defensive. I was just following up on your suggestion that I have posted sites explaining differences. I haven’t posted links to particular portions of any sites on those subjects, but I have posted links to sites that (if a person looks around) may contain such information. I don’t spend a lot of energy defending “changes” though. Like you said, most churches have elements that outsiders consider “changes” that may not represent any real change at all.
Tim said
My first time here. It is all quite eye-opening for me to see various “entrenched” points of view, that’s for sure. Having people be nice to each other is what we all would probably like. But a major difference in opinion and faith does cause some animosity and grief amongst us whether we like it or not…don’t you think. Take the following example: experts say water exists only in the following form: A water molecule has a chemical makeup up of H2O (2 parts hyd/1 pt ox). We all probably learned this in early school. I assume this has always been the case for the water we drink , use, or have recreation in. If the formula would change or have not been what it was originally, we would likely not have the water we are familiar with. Since water is (without a doubt) the most important substance in all of life here on earth, then equally so, I believe God would be the most important entity (substance) to give us or help us achieve an eternal life after our life here is over. My point is that if water needs to have one agreed upon definition to be water (especially our drinking water!), wouldn’t that kind of logic apply to the definition of jesus christ? Was christ originally a man or always god? Did christ ever personally have sin or did he not? If jesus christ is god, is he god of a limited portion of the universe, or all of it? If jesus christ is not god, then what or who was he? Do you get my drift? The “small theological differences” (as some people would call it) between mormons and christians as well as other faiths are not small at all when put them into certain perspectives. If you were dying of thirst, would you like to receive a lot of H2 (hydrogen without the oxygen) when you thought you’d be getting pure, clean (H2O) water? Probably not and you would not be happy with the person who gave it to you either!) So I believe the important question really is…how important is definition when it comes to understanding what you really have or are getting (especially in religion and faith)? Ultimately, does being nice really matter when you see someone dying of thirst and you nicely give them something that won’t help them get what they need and then they “nicely” die?
Tim Wade said
Tim, I agree that in order have true fellowship amongs Christians we need to be singing off the same page of the songbook. In that sense you are most correct; we do need definitions that agree, especially in the way we define the atoning sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But an absence of defintions never precludes our responsibility to love people in Jesus’ name. Our job as Christians is not to shove the Bible or the BoM down anyone’s throat, or force conversation on people like they did during the days of the Inquisition. Rather, our job is to love people where they are, without offense. Yes, we do need to speak the truth, but we do it in love, but not forcefully. And if that truth offends, so be it. Christians are farmers, and builders. We plant seeds of righteousness into people’s lives, water those seeds, and after God gives the increase, we harvest the fruit. Sometimes this process can take years, and can truly test one’s patience. Nevertheless, we kindly endure it because we love our Heavenly Father, and want to bring glory to his name, not contempt, or spite. It is in this way we build the Kingdom of God, one life at a time. Stay faithful to what you are called to do, and God will reveal the definitions in His own sweet time.
In Christ,
Tim Wade
GB said
Tim,
You said “I believe in original sin”. I think the problem is not that what you believe is so different than what the LDS believe. The problem is the usage of the phrase “original sin” as the title of your belief.
I suspect that what you mean when you say “original sin” and what I mean when I say “original sin” are far different things.
We LDS reject the doctrine of “original sin” as WE understand it.
We may not totally reject the doctrine of “original sin” as YOU understand it. Of course, we may not totally accept it either.
I think this may be one of those situations where we may be talking past each other.
Any way, I enjoy your comments and I have to say that with statements like “I will admit that I can look at the Bible and see how Mormon interpretation came about. I do not agree with it, but can not deny it”, you have got to be one of the most honest, and open minded (tolerant) pastors I have ever come across.
Cheers and God bless.
Zach said
Tim, how helpful is it if I or you or anyone else preaches the Gospel in a manner that is contentious, combative, and contrarian? Galatians 5:22-23 teaches us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (KJV). Contention drives that Spirit out and away. I’ve seen it firsthand.
Bearing that in mind, I don’t believe that Christ’s cause is best served by being argumentative or contentious. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is like water – the water of life. It’s not meant for us to force others face down in the pool until they drown. Nor is it meant to be frozen into a club to beat others over the head with.
Jesus was meek. Jesus was gentle. Jesus was loving and kind, even going so far as to ask forgiveness for those who crucified Him. He still is all those things. And if we are going to take up our crosses and follow Him, shouldn’t we be the same?
How important is a correct understanding of God? I think it’s vital to developing real faith. But that doesn’t absolve me of the responsibility to act in a Christ-like manner to everyone around me, even people I’ll only interact with via comments on a blog post.
Natasha said
Tim2,
Your analogy would be perfect if Christianity hinged on the definition of Christ. But we’re told all the time that it hinges upon whether or not we accept Christ as our saviour. Does it matter if we believe he has a body or not, blond hair or black, etc, if we believe that he died for our sins and that we NEED him to return to live with God again? THIS is the essence of Christianity. If I happen to believe that Christ is green-eyed and he isn’t, who cares? Think Christ cares? If I’m mistaken about some aspects of Christ but I still dedicate my life to him, try to live his teachings, pray in his name and confess my sins so that he can make them white again, how does the definition of what he looks like or whether or not he has a wife or whether or not, or whether or not he has a separate body from Heavenly Father even matter? You REALLY think the Lord cares about that when we’re trying our best and living exemplary lives in his name?
The little differences DON’T matter because Christianity is not hinged upon them.
Robert said
Tim Wade,
I love your response. I think that is exactly the attitude we all need: to share with love.
Tim, (newcomer)
The details of different views on Christ don’t seem to be valid comparisons. It think it’s much more like you being used to drinking pure water and then drinking flouridated water for the first time. Or I would actually move away from that comparison, because a more realistic difference seems like you wanting to say the night sky is black while I might call it midnight blue, or you calling a beautiful midday sky “azure” and me simply calling it blue. The two different definitions are so terribly close as to be quite the same in how they make us act, by and large. Christ is God, just not the same as Heavenly Father. Christ lived without sin. I think the latter part that anyone can agree on who calls himself a Christian.
Anyway, I continue to enjoy the discourse.
Tim Wade said
GB, you may be right in your assesment. We may indeed be talking past one another. Just for clarity sake – and I am aware that my interpretation of original sin differs from the LDS – “original sin” is an inherited propensity to live apart from the love of God. I recall the line in that old hymn which I learned as a boy that said, “Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the one I love.” I believe every person is born innocent, but has within them the inclination to be selfish, self-righteous, and over all self-centered. I look at 1 John 4:7-8 which tells us that love is of God and that the only way to love is to be know God through Jesus Christ. To me it is only logical that if I if I can not love apart from a relationship with Jesus Christ, then anything less is to live in sin. In so much as I understand this logic, there is no way that I could be anything less than a sinner at any time of my life because I inherited a sin nature at birth. That’s how I see it, and I think scripture will back me up. But I’m not arguing a point. I just want let you know where I’m coming from so we don’t keep talk past one another. Thanks for your kind words. Peace.
Tim Wade
Robert said
Tim,
Interesting note: unless I’m mistaken, the hymn you’re referring to is my personal favorite: Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing. It also happened to be a favorite of the recently passed prophet. I first noticed it for the words but really got a kick out of it when I noticed the name of its author: Robert Robinson.
Tim said
Thanks for commenting. My reference to an agreed upon definition of something (such as who or what jesus christ actually is) by using an analogy of H2o as compared to H2, is different than you may think I have implied. I really meant to say that H2O is water (of course) and H2 is Hydrogen. Water and Hydrogen are definitely not the same and are not normally used for the same purposes. In fact substituting one over the other can be deadly.
That was my original point. Some people here say “who cares” about the details as long as we all love christ? Don’t we have to know who really are really committed to? Who is it that we are loving or that we are trusting. That’s like finding out after all these years that Bernie Madoff (the investor guy in the news) really did not invest your money, he stole it and created a Ponzi scheme. You loved him until you found who who he “really was.” Then you not only despised him when you found out he lost all your investment money, you finally knew the “real Bernie.” So that is the most important thing I believe when it comes to ones commitment to god…who is he “really.” It’s not the little things that would concern me…it’s the BIG things and there are BIG differences it seems in the God of Abraham, Joseph Smith, Muhammad, and others. If a person is “worshiping” someone or something that really isn’t what they thought (like bernie madoff) then how can that be good?
Tim Wade said
Tim, your point is well taken. I have often said the same things -minus the Bernie Madoff analogy. Thanks.
Robert said
But if the God of Abraham and the God of Joseph Smith ARE the same, then were you simply referring to Muslims here? I assume you’re referring to the most accepted version of Protestant Christians in your comments about the difference. In which case that would be the God of the Greek Philosophers, so the line might read better, “The God of Abraham, the God of Plato, or Muhammed”. For future reference. This article http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/1999_Apostasy_and_Restoration_in_the_Big_Picture.html by Daniel C. Peterson highlights the origins of the ethereal, disembodied God in Christianity quite well. And he also brings in your tie to Islam, since he is a professor of Arabic and Islamic studies. It’s well written and well researched, I must say, if you’re interested.
But yes, not understanding what you worship can be quite dangerous. If the reason you worship is wrong but your feelings are the same as if your reason was right, though, it might be something God can understand. He’s pretty forgiving, you might say. I wouldn’t know, though, because I’m not him and I leave the judging up to him. Thank goodness I get to.
Tim said
Robert,
You make a very good point when you say “it might be something God can understand. ” Certainly I would agree that the God of heaven should be able to understand everything including our reasons for doing the things that we do even if it looks like we don’t know what we’re doing. But according to the mainstream christians I have spoken with, they believe that god (the father) has laid out a plan that a person cannot go to heaven at all unless he has come to him through Jesus Christ (as they define him) as god’s son for the forgiveness of their sins (which they claim are original from the 1st man on earth, Adam) So my point is that if one group (christians) define Jesus Christ one way and another group (mormons) define jesus christ another way, no matter what you believe about who’s right, the definitions are noticeably different. And I think christians would say that their definition is from the original and I think mormons would say the same thing only they have restored it to it’s original. Bottom line is the christians would defend their version of christ as not being the god of plato as mormons would defend their position that their christ is not the god of the “protestants,” woudn’t you say? And therefore protestants would probably say that their God would not allow a mormon believer to go to heaven without coming through their version of christ, no matter what the intentions or reasons were. At least that’s the way it appears. So back to “god understands our intentions,” that would work if it were always true and the mormons give god a lot of room on that issue it seems, but the christian protestants don’t. It appears it’s more black & white. So who is right? I guess faith is where that answer comes from…yes?
Robert said
Tim,
I’m not sure where LDS Christians disagree with what you just described regarding Jesus: the savior, the Christ, the redeemer of our sins. So far we agree. Whatever else you think the LDS Church believes about Christ that differs on that, I’m all ears. As for the main difference I was pointing out to you: most “mainstream” Christians are Trinitarians – they believe that God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one being. That is an idea that originated from the Greeks when they left their religion and the philosophy of Plato and became Christians. They brought over the idea of an amorphous, disembodied God, which is not Biblical. Various non-LDS scholars have begun writing extensively on this subject, demonstrating that it does not require the Book of Mormon to necessarily understand that aspect of the Godhood. The article Iposted on this topic is well researched. If you prefer, inspect the work of Margaret Barker (a Methodist seminary instructor and minister herself) on the subject. I think you’ve misunderstood the LDS perspective, though, if you think we don’t believe Jesus is our redeemer and savior.
Robert said
Here’s a great post comparing Book of Mormon verses on the nature of Christ to Bible verses. The conclusion is much the same I just made – Jesus is the Christ, son of God, the savior and redeemer, the same as you follow as a Protestant Christian.
http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2008/09/comparing-mormon-christ-with-savior-of.html
Robert said
Okay, a link listed in the comments on that post just blew me away when I saw the topic, so I had to read it. And I was more blown away still.
Please read this pamphlet written by a Baptist minister:
http://www.centerplace.org/library/bofm/baptistversionofbofm.htm
Tim said
Hi Robert. This Tim #2. Thanks for your comments and explanation. Perhaps mormons are far more forgiving on the differences of the jesus of mainstream christianity and mormon doctrine/belief. My observations have shown that “christians” (non-mormons for the sake of this conversation) believe that jesus always existed as god of the entire universe before time began, is co-equal in power with the (his) father but does occupy a different position within that so-called trinity (which they would say the 1st christians and apostles also believed). Most christians also seem to believe that jesus never had sin in him at any time. Mormons seem to believe (as far as i can tell) that jesus progressed from a sinful being at one time to what he is today (a god) in control of a limited part of the universe as opposed to the entire thing. If that is true, wouldn’t that make a mormon jesus “less of a god” than the christian god?” In other words, not as powerful, not as old, not as perfect…you see what I am trying to say? And the christians would probably say to mormons…”why would you want to believe in and follow a less powerful, limited jesus than the one who we know?” Regardless of what may be the reasons that mainstream christians believe it (jesus) to be that way, they DO believe that, don’t they? If they don’t then i am misinformed and apologize for that assertion. And if they do believe that, then isn’t that definition of jesus different than mormons…in important ways? Of course, we’re not even talking about the worlds largest religion (Islam) that believes jesus was never deity, never a god, and just a prophet in the line of prophets up until the last and final prophet Muhammad. Can islam even be anywhere close to “truth” when they don’t consider the jesus christ a god or “the” god? But I don’t want to deviate from the point i am trying to make. The definition of jesus I believe is vastly different between mormons and christians (and jews), and no matter what the truth might really be, the differences (big ones) remain the same and the reasons for those differences remain the same. Therefore it is not the same jesus christ for each one of those faiths. Will the real jesus christ please stand up?! Just thought i’d throw a little humor in for what it’s worth:) Finally…the individual that does not recognize the differences in something when there probably is…could be said to be “biased,” although I am not suggesting that of anyone here at the moment. Have a great week.
Robert said
LDS Christians do not believe Jesus ever sinned. We do believe he is separate from the Father, but not part of the same being (which is the trinitarian view). If you’ve never realized the Trinity teaches that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all the same being, then you aren’t a Trinitarian (just I never have been) in which case, we actually agree a great deal about Christ. He is God, just not God the Father. He is eternal, and he created the world (whether that means the universe or just the Earth is not something I’m really delving into – I would imagine it is more the former).
I think you are correct that you are the misinformed about the LDS position. But fear not, you are far from the only one. A lot of misinformation and disinformation floats around out there. I certainly saw plenty before I joined.
Tim said
Thanks Robert for that clarification.
I thought the “mormon jesus” was once a mortal man on earth born of mortal parents and therefore would have had some sin by virture of his mortality (less than perfection at one time or another). Then he progressed to perfection where he is now.
I also thought that the mormon jesus did not create the entire universe before the beginning of time (as the mainstream protestants believe about their god and the jews believe about their god).
So then the mormon jesus was always a perfect, sinless man and then god who probably created the entire universe before the beginning of time? Is that correct? I hope I got it right this time:) As for the trinity…that’s a very hard concept for me to understand altogether so I don’t think about it too much.
Robert said
Tim,
You most definitely have appreciated the idea of Jesus as we believe in this latest description. He created the “world” (as the scriptures say, and as I said, I won’t quibble what that “world” means) at the instruction of his father. He is an eternal, perfect being, and he came to Earth to live a sinless life and die as a sacrifice for all sin. He accepted that job (if you can call it that) of his own free will, knowing it from the before our time in mortality ever began. I did find a great chapter in the Book of Mormon that describes Jesus, Mosiah 3:
1 And again my brethren, I would call your attention, for I have somewhat more to speak unto you; for behold, I have things to tell you concerning that which is to come.
2 And the things which I shall tell you are made known unto me by an angel from God. And he said unto me: Awake; and I awoke, and behold he stood before me.
3 And he said unto me: Awake, and hear the words which I shall tell thee; for behold, I am come to declare unto you the aglad tidings of great joy.
4 For the Lord hath heard thy prayers, and hath judged of thy righteousness, and hath sent me to declare unto thee that thou mayest rejoice; and that thou mayest declare unto thy people, that they may also be filled with joy.
5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.
7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.
8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.
9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.
10 And he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.
11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.
12 But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.
13 And the Lord God hath sent his holy prophets among all the children of men, to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue, that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come, the same might receive remission of their sins, and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even as though he had already come among them.
14 Yet the Lord God saw that his people were a stiffnecked people, and he appointed unto them a law, even the law of Moses.
15 And many signs, and wonders, and types, and shadows showed he unto them, concerning his coming; and also holy prophets spake unto them concerning his coming; and yet they hardened their hearts, and understood not that the law of Moses availeth nothing except it were through the atonement of his blood.
16 And even if it were possible that little children could sin they could not be saved; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins.
17 And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.
18 For behold he judgeth, and his judgment is just; and the infant perisheth not that dieth in his infancy; but men drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.
20 And moreover, I say unto you, that the time shall come when the knowledge of a Savior shall spread throughout every nation, kindred, tongue, and people.
21 And behold, when that time cometh, none shall be found blameless before God, except it be little children, only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent.
22 And even at this time, when thou shalt have taught thy people the things which the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, even then are they found no more blameless in the sight of God, only according to the words which I have spoken unto thee.
23 And now I have spoken the words which the Lord God hath commanded me.
24 And thus saith the Lord: They shall stand as a bright testimony against this people, at the judgment day; whereof they shall be judged, every man according to his works, whether they be good, or whether they be evil.
25 And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.
26 Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever.
27 And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever. Thus hath the Lord commanded me. Amen.
Hope this helps. Feel free to read it here: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/3
if this format makes it harder.
Tim said
Robert,
Thanks for all that info. So with that mind, why would someone want to believe in the god of the catholics/protestants, jews, muslims, etc, when they could have all of what the mormons believe instead?
Barry said
Tim Wade, what a wonderful example of charity you are. In your article you expressed love and understanding for your fellow man (LDS or not) and in every subsequent response–whether responding to a complimentary or combative submission, you remain similarly charitable. I think if the Savior were reading your blog, he would say “good job”.
As a lifelong member of the LDS church, I too have learned to love the Savior. I spent a couple years in Scandinavia as a missionary and I met many wonderful Christians there–most of them not LDS. I was particularly impressed by my brothers and sisters in the Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran and other protestant churches there. We didn’t always agree on doctrine, of course; but I can tell you those good people loved the Savior.
I commend Robert and others who have done an excellent job of explaining oft-misunderstood LDS doctrine, while doing it in a respectful and non-combative way. I also respect those who have asked sincere questions. To those who are angry with the LDS church or its members because they disagree with the doctrine or are disaffected former members, I would just say “give peace a chance” (to quote Lennon–the Beatles one, not the Russian one…) I’m sorry if you have ever been offended by an LDS person. I’m afraid I have offended many in my days, and my life is a constant saga of trying to do the right thing, and then trying to patch up all my screw ups. Of course, in the end the lesson is that the Savior takes care of that because no matter how hard I try, I can’t do it. He fixes all my problems, despite my best efforts to create more (as long as I trust in him and submit my will to his–which, of course, is easier said than done.)
To Tim and others who still have honest questions about the LDS faith, I would just pose a question to you regarding the Book of Mormon. In the old world, God had prophets who spoke his words and who were commanded to write them down for future generations. Since in a general sense, the old world didn’t know the new world existed until just a few hundred years ago; and we know there were millions of people who lived in the new world–why wouldn’t God instruct his children in the new world in the same way? And why wouldn’t he command them to write it down? And if they did, wouldn’t it be beautiful if both of those records (from the old world and the new world) testified of Christ?
Anyway, I commend you, Tim, on your honest and charitable treatment of your fellow man.
Robert said
TIm (newcomer),
The “cute” answer would be “I don’t know, they ought to believe as we do.” The real answer is not so simple, and probably has more to do with the tradition in which they were raised. Jews and Muslims in the Middle East both openly acknowledge that many of them are “secular Jews” or “secular Muslims” meaning they are basically culturally in that religion, but they don’t really follow it. I would say the same is true of many Christians as well, though they’re not as open about that because it sounds so bad to say “Yeah, I only go to church here because I grew up this way.” There certainly are Mormons who fit that as well, but it’s harder to be one simply because we are more active in general in our faith. That’s not a criticism of others: we just have no staff or paid clergy to run the day to day or even Sunday to Sunday services, so a lot of members have callings they are responsible for to help the work of the church be accomplished.
Barry,
I like that question about the new and old world records. That explains very well what these two great pieces of the gospel are.
Matt said
Tim Wade, thanks for your fair (generous, actually) look into the positive aspects of a faith other than your own. From reading your comments it is obvious that you have done your “homework” on the LDS Church by investigating the Church directly, rather than relying on anti-Mormon propoganda (and believe me, I ran into plenty of such propoganda as a Mormon missionary for two years in Dallas, Texas).
None of us can ask more of our fellow men than to listen to us tell our own story, with respect and in an attitude of learning as much good as possible, regardless of whether we ultimately align all our views.
With the exposure in Mormon circles that this post has received, you have done more good–in regard to letting Mormons know there are kind-hearted followers of Christ who are NOT hostile towards the LDS faith in the ranks of evangelical ministers–than you probably know.
This world would be a much better place if more Christians–Mormon, Evangelical, and otherwise–would follow your example of simply respecting each other, despite doctrinal, ideological, political, or other differences. And I believe our Savior would be happy with the progress we would have made. We are all part of one big family and it was meant to be a happy family.
Ken Krogue said
Tim Wade and all,
I’m tuning in rather late to this discussion. I’ve taken two hours on this Sunday evening to read through the entire series of comments and I have to comment on the rarity of this discussion; a (mostly) non-confrontational discussion with a great deal of open fairness on both sides. Congratulations Tim, you have built a bridge; a rare bridge indeed. It may be one worth building again in the future. Don’t forget what you have done here.
I am most pleased that I see very little anti-Mormon rhetoric involved and I congratulate everyone on all sides for following true Christian practices of proper communication.
I want to bring a whole new perspective into things that I would ask those who read this to consider.
I propose a new thought process as to why the divide exists between Mormons and Evangelicals. It is one I experienced first hand for the last 25 years and sheds sad but totally new light on this core topic.
Pardon me, but I must give some of my background for it to make sense. Two quick stories leading to the conclusion:
I was raised a Latter-Day-Saint in the heart of Utah, but struggled greatly with living my religion in my teenage years due primarily to my own selfish problems. I received an appointment by Orrin Hatch to the United States Naval Academy at the age of 17. Wow, was I in for a wake-up call.
I woke up in July of 1983 as the only (so-called) Mormon in my plebe class of 40+ in the 17th company of USNA. I met friends from every religion and walk of life. I spent time with friends and roommates that were Jewish, Catholic, Methodist, Atheist, and Presbyterian, etc. I quickly became a bad example of a Mormon.
I experimented with many things as I tried to decide who I wanted to be. I finally committed to read, study, and pray for myself. I had never read the entire Bible, so I did. I had never read the entire Book of Mormon, so I did. Through both, I gained faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I learned how to repent of my sins and truly was given a broken heart and a contrite spirit over the pain my actions had caused in the lives of so many. I was forgiven and given a promise of salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ. My heart was changed. Everyone around me noticed my change and came to ask why. I studied night and day everything everyone gave me and soon learned to take the Holy Spirit of Truth as my guide. I still had a long way to go chart my course in life, but I now had what mattered.
During this process I was drawn to a former Mormon (Latter-Day-Saint) who had converted to Evangelical Christianity and he introduced me to the Officers Christian Fellowship at the Academy. We spent hours talking and conversing because I was sincerely drawn to be with them. It was them that first introduced me to Amy Grant, Michael Card, and Michael Smith and I became an avid fan.
After a few months I was invited to a weekend retreat in Pennsylvania. While there they had obviously put in some planning for my attendance. They had a meeting for all of us that lasted late into the night. It began with personal stories and testimonies, with several standing up at the podium and witnessing to all present. Occasionally I felt the familiar presence of the Holy Spirit bear witness of the truths they spoke. It came and went based on the sincerity of the comments. As things progressed, I was a little taken aback as several outright misconceptions were stated about the Mormon faith and was amazed as all seemed to nod as if they were in agreement; even my friend.
I felt like an enemy had sown seeds of discord between me and my friends based on lies and half truths and wondered where such things came from.
I was finally prompted to stand up myself and go to the front of the room and share my own witness. I said only a few things. I told them that the version of Mormonism they knew was not in any way the one I knew. I told them I had faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and had confessed him as my Savior and knew (from the Holy Spirit I had felt) that they had also. I also told them that whatever source they had gotten their information about the faith that I myself was re-investigating was not based on truth and that I would invite them to share with me where they were getting their information after the meeting.
The meeting ended at midnight and we all stayed up well into the night. I watched the sun come up.
They brought to me books they had been studying individually and as a small groups, almost all by former members of the Latter-Day-Saint faith who couldn’t just leave and move on. I was shocked. I didn’t know the answers to many of the questions they asked me, but many I did. I wrote everything down I didn’t know and committed to find out. And they were in turn concerned that the things they were quoting to me from their books were in many ways completely wrong, others included a great deal of truth, but with some lies woven in subtle ways. It seemed a classic pattern of misconception, almost propaganda.
Little did I know. It took me years to find the answers to the questions raised that night, but I did.
I know this is longer than most blog entries, but please persevere; the point is close, and extremely relevant to the entire Mormon/Evangelical question.
Many years later I became the president of a software company that sold electronic multi-media versions of the bible to Christian bookstores throughout the US. We worked through the three primary distributors. While in this capacity I traveled to these bookstore shows. I was able to read, study, view, etc., every written work, video, and audio tape in this ‘genre’ of literature known as ‘Anti-Mormon’ literature.
Having been in business now for many years; I knew anti-competitor literature when I saw it. I was starting to get a clue at what was really behind the tireless energy that seemed to be expended.
Every show I attended had a track that included topics about how to use ‘Anti-Mormon’ literature to assist the paid ministry in keeping their flocks from being converted; and thereby losing the tithes and offerings income that came with their faithful attendance. It was even presented in this way. I sat through a few and finally had my answer:
It’s about money.
Not strictly of course. That would be too simple of an answer. Many truly believe and are caught up in the never-ending rhetoric and contention. But at its core it is about retaining revenues from the flock, which gives enough motivation to sow contention and keep hatred burning. The Author of Lies had done his work well by giving ample ammunition to both sides; that they
were so caught up in the battle they lose the war.
I’m a marketing strategist, a military strategy hobbyist, a football coach, a scoutmaster, and a father. My job and most of my hobbies is to analyze strategies to find out the plan of the opponent, and develop a strategy to win.
I didn’t see an opponent in my dear friends at the Naval Academy; I still don’t. There was another opponent at work there. (I also don’t see opponents in most of the writers of this blog.)
If I were Lucifer, preparing my strategies for the final conflict, I would do all in my power to 1) weaken the family and 2) weaken the alliances between the strongest forces against me by getting them fighting amongst themselves.
Forget everything else about the core question we discuss and find out if I speak truth about the underlying motivation for this divide between us. It’s done by a third party; so we don’t align in one common direction.
It is a long way from the Way of the Master who had shown the course by chasing out the money-changers and who promised he would leave the Holy Ghost to be our Guide.
We are only both trying to do what He asked us to do as he left: Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature…
As (distant) brothers in Christ, let’s stop wasting our energy fighting a battle between us when we should be allies in preparing the world and this nation for the real battle before us. Let’s practice what He taught with loving kindness, and gain the true victory.
Study the work of population scientists and you will see that in the end of this century the two primary forces for Christian ethics (versions aside) in the US will be the Baptists and the Mormons. Will we be divided or united when He returns? What difference would the two approaches mean to the outcome? Let’s face it; neither side will convert the other (other than incrementally) until the Lord returns, and settles the question once and for all.
So let’s stop looking for enemies amongst our friends and band together to stop the tide that is overwhelming our youth, our marriages, and our great country. A house divided will fall. By their fruits ye shall know them. If they aren’t against us, they are for us.
Which ever way we look, His way is the right way.
Robert said
Ken,
I must say, I enjoyed reading your story / comment very much. I wholeheartedly agree that we must unite our efforts where ever and whenever we can. I also definitely see the “it’s about money” connection – I see it first hand in a small town where Baptists make up well over half the population and easily three quarters of the churches available. There is a lot of fear taught in those churches by the ministers regarding Mormons and the LDS Church. The irony is that many of those Baptists don’t even realize they have Mormon friends, neighbors, co-workers, and customers. It’s painted in such a way to dehumanize it – to take the individual members out of it – so it is easier to hate “them”. It’s truly sad, and I’m thankful for those friends of mine who are Baptist (and Methodist) who have decided to overlook my religion and treat me like a person.
Tim, I continue to respect you for this dialogue. It has been very fruitful. You definitely have built a bridge.
Mike Rosenhan said
While I disagree over your interpretation of what the Bible is, I respect your thoughtful insight. It is nice to have a writer be respectful while not trashing the beliefs of Mormons. You did a great job, keep it up.
Tim Wade said
Mike, thank you for your respect as well. Truly, we accomplish nothing if all we can do is insult one another by putting down each other’s beliefs.
Andrew Price said
Tim Wade – as a Christian working among Mormons for over 25 years I an truly shocked by your naivity and ignorance of both Mormonism and Biblical Christianity . It should also be said that the many Mormons who have escaped the Cult and who have become Christians will be grieved at your inexplicable pandering to a soul destroying system .
So called Mormon prophet John Taylor said :-
” What ! Are Christians ignorant ? Yes , as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast ”
Journal of Discourses Book 13 p225 .
Perversely this wicked man has I fear hit the mark as regards to yourself .
I can assure you that it gives me no pleasure in saying what I have said to a Christian brother ( I mean a brother in the Biblical sense , not the vile Mormon concept of brotherhood )
Tim Wade said
Andrew,
Thank you for your comment. I regret to inform you that it is you who are showing ignorance by not reading the more than 100 comments related to this article. Many of these comments are my own, and express my well-informed opinion of both Christianity and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in no small detail. Since you are obviously not one who is willing to discern the truth for himself, I submit to you a summary of my opinion.
1. The article was written not Mormons, but to Protestants in an attempt to stir the Church to be more proactive in its faith in the fours areas that I mention.
2. I do not believe in The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, nor the Doctrine and the Covenants. I have only read portions of these texts and only when someone from The Church has requested me to do so.
3. I believe the Bible is the Word of God and sole authority in matters of faith.
4. Because it is the proclaimed right of the conservative Protestant church to hold to a belief in Plenary-Verbal Inspiration, I see no reason why such a right should be withheld from Joseph Smith or any other Mormon.
5. The declaration of a closed Canon or the revelation of Jesus is insufficient evidence to support the belief that God no longer speaks to His people through Plenary-Verbal Inspiration.
6. I do not believe in Plenary-Verbal Inspiration.
7. To uphold the man-made belief in Plenary-Verbal Inspiration, and deny the possibility of a closed Canon is not hypocritical nor contradictory, but rather is to lend benefit of doubt to God who is still capable of speaking to his people in what ever manner He might deem appropriate.
8. To judge The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as to stand in a position of authority that belongs only to Christ Himself.
9. To discern the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to measure against standards upon which no two Protestant churches have been able to agree in more than 2000 years.
10. In so much as I disagree with many of the doctrines purported by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I agree with them in principle on many levels and refuse stand in judgment of them.
Based on these ten points, I refuse to take the position that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can not be Christians, when in fact many of them may very well be.
Andrew, I do not know the context in which “so called Mormon prophet John Taylor” made the comment you quote. What I do know is that if the world’s opinion of Christianity were based solely on the comment you have just made to me, then I would expect to hear, ” What ! Are Christians ignorant ? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast ”
Thankfully, we have Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ to rightly divide for us the Word of Truth, and not the opinion of Andrew Price.
Sincerely,
Tim Wade
Andrew Price said
Tim – Are Mormons Christians ? If so are they better Christians than some who are true saved born-again believers ?
Tim Wade said
Andrew, I do not know if Mormons are Christians any more than I know if you are a Christian. I have been in and around the ministry all my life, and in that time have come to learn that a person can claim to be whatever they want to be. If a person claims to be a born again believer in Jesus Christ, I can only discern his faith by the fruit his life produces. Based on that criteria, I can tell you that I know some Mormons who are producing some really good fruit. Whether the Lord Jesus truly lives in their heart is not a matter for me or you to decide.
Andrew Price said
Tim – I am very sorry to say this , but you are in big trouble theologically – your views are bordering on the heretical . My first post charitably hoped that you were saying things out of ignorance . Your last contribution basically reduces salvation and the Christian faith to good works and a mere assent to a name – Jesus Christ . So a person may believe what he likes about the Lord Jesus eg the Mormons , but so long as His name is part of his religious vocabulary and he is a ‘ nice ‘ person , then that person is a Christian .
Doctrines such as the Trinity , the full Divinity and perfect humanity of Christ as well the new birth and justification by faith alone etc are absolutely non negotiable .To quote Martin Luther the are ‘ of the order of a standing or falling of a Church ‘
Mormonism is another Gospel , and the Apostle Paul does not mince his words when he says
” But though we , or an angel from heaven , preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you , let him be accursed ” Galatians 1v8
Here is a sample of the vile and disgusting heresies of the Mormons ” The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father . Therefore , the Father and Mother of Jesus according to the flesh , must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife ; hence the virgin Mary must have been for the time , the lawful wife of God the Father … He had the lawful right to overshadow the virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband …” Orson Pratt – The Seer p 158
If you cared for truth – for God’s truth and the honour and dignity of the Lord Jesus you would not be doing what you are doing . May God deal with you in His mercy.
Tim Wade said
Andrew, thank you for your carefully thought out comments. It has been and honor to dialogue with you. Since I am in such dire spiritual need, as you well point out, I most certainly would appreciate your prayers. While you are praying for my soul, I am going to continue to share the love of Jesus Christ with people who may or may not uphold the same views of Christianity is I do. I will love them without judging them, and in so doing – who knows – I might even win some to Christ. I feel confident that when we get to heaven we will discover that it indeed brings more honor to the name of Jesus to share his love with the world than to bash people over the head with self-righteous, self-glorifying critcism that has nothing to do with the teachings of the Bible.
I am now going to step back from the urinal as I withdraw from this pissing contest. You may have the last word.
Tim
Barry said
Tim, thanks once again for standing up for reason and your fellow man. If more people were as interested as you in supporting each other rather than attacking each other, what a great world it would be.
Mr. Price has made the mistake many others have made when investigating the LDS church–they have found quotes out of context from people who at one point were leaders in the LDS church and they have presented those quotes as official doctrine of the church. Just to put these accusations at rest, the LDS church does not teach that the virgin Mary and God the Father were married or anything of the sort. Orson Pratt may have had opinions on how the conception of Christ occurred, but those opinions are no more valid doctrine than are my personal opinions. The truth is, the LDS church has no official opinion on precisely how the conception happened, other than the power of the Holy Ghost was involved as the Bible states. The truth is, there are things we don’t understand entirely, and we may not until God himself sits us down and explains everything.
Similarly, the church does not teach that those outside the LDS Church are not Christians or are ignorant beasts, as Mr. Price implies the quote from John Taylor indicates. There are millions of Christians in the world, and only some of them are LDS.
I cannot fault Mr. Price too much, however, as I seriously doubt he has ever read the Journal of Discourses, from which he quotes John Taylor. Rather, I suspect he uses the quote out of context from writings he has read from anti-LDS writers. One of their favorite tricks is to take a quote from early LDS leaders and then use that quote as doctrine. The truth is, sometimes those words constitute doctrine, and sometimes they are just opinions. Did Joseph Smith have mistaken opinions? Of course he did. He was a man, with all the feebleness of men. God doesn’t pick perfect men to be prophets (take a look at Moses’ objections to his call because he was “slow of speech”). Rather, God picks men who are willing to do His will. He knows those men will make mistakes, but with His help, they would bring His word to His children.
So here’s the question–if an honest seeker of the truth wants to know the Southern Baptist Church’s position on something, would they go to a critic of that church to find previous quotes of church leaders that could be taken out of context to present a controversial viewpoint, OR would that truth seeker go to the church and ask, “what is your position on this matter?” My experience is that people use the former approach with the LDS church constantly, caring little for what the church actually teaches. That calls into question both their motives and their ability to research the truth (assuming the truth is what they actually want).
So, if you want to find out the position of the LDS church on a particular matter, there are many LDS folks out there that can help you, and there is an official church website that answers many of the fundamental questions–see http://www.Mormon.org. Again, however, that assumes you actually want to know the church’s position.
Okay, now joining you at a safe distance from the urinal.
Tim Wade said
Barry,
Thanks for helping place some contextual boundaries around these comments. You make some really good points. And your last comment cracks me up. After being attacked by Mr. Price, you truly have blessed me. Much appreciated.
Tim
John said
I would say that the Mormons have decieved you the way they have me for the last 2 years. I am a Melchisedek Priest. Yesterday in Priesthood class, 1 man begin slandering Billy Graham who I think was the most honest preacher ever. Not 1 Priest came to his defense except me. I am done with the underwear and all of the other stupid things they do. They attempt to index the book of Mormon to the Bible but it never fits. Our President Monson who is also considered a Prophet wrote an article saying that we should reach out to other faiths and get the best ideas from them and give them our best ideas and both faiths would be better off. Someone forgot to tell this ward I am with. They are constantly hammering other religions. Yesterday was the last straw for me.Thank you.
Tim Wade said
John, thanks for the comment. I have to contend with you on your comment just a bit and say that I am in no way decieved. I accept people and their faith at face value and judge no one. Does that mean that I believe all who claim to be Christians have accepted the redeeming blood of Jesus according to the way the Bible presents it? No, of course not.
My association with members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints no more makes me a Mormon or a believer in Mormon doctrine any more than driving a Pontiac makes me a car or lover of all things GM. I can drive a Pontiac all day long and know that BMW still makes the best car for the money, the same as I can share God’s love with the Mormon people and still stand firm in my Protestant faith. My ability to do this drives people on both sides of this issue nuts.
I know which side my bread is buttered on; I am not in a crisis of faith. Initially it might have sounded like a crisis given all that I wrote back then, but today, five months later, I am as solid as ever having never doubted my Protestant faith in any way. I applaud you for being willing to wrestle with your own faith, however I want to also encourage you to know what it is you are walking into before leaving the world in which you have been living. In a Protestant/Gentile world, up is the new down, back is the new forth. The learning curve is massive, and not for the faint of heart.
I wish you all the best and am always here if you need an ear to bend.
Repsectfully,
TIm Wade
GB said
Tim,
It is obvious to me from the words and phrases he used that John isn’t a Mormon at all, but someone trying to deceive us into thinking he is.
Isn’t the devil the father of all lies?
As far as Andrew Price’s comment is concerned, you won’t mind if I stand up wind will you?
Tim Wade said
GB,
You are not the first person to suggest John to be an imposter. In fact, I recieved an email from an LDS friend just an hour ago basically saying the same thing. As for Mr. Price, stand where you must. I will approve almost all comments so long as they are not slanderous. Thank you for your input.
Tim Wade
Natasha said
Oh, ya. I would bet my right food that John is not a Mormon. Except that I don’t bet. Because I AM Mormon.
And what’s with the affected, staccato way he writes? Definitely the sound of someone who’s trying to hard. So silly.
John said
Do you want proof that I am Mormon Mr. know it all? If you know the Mormons as I do they want no one to leave the church that is in good standing as I am. I talked with a fourth generation Mormon on another site and He told me what I already knew. It is all about money. I will give you his site. 33 reasons why I left the Mormon Church A de-conversion. This man spent many years with the Mormons. If you have the courage to call me a liar, then have the courage to read a bit of this man’s testimony. It is rather lengthy but you should never call anyone a fake unless you can prove it. If it comes down to it I will give the church location as well as my real name. It is very difficult to get away from these Mormons even after you leave. They will harass you every single day to come back until you get a restraining order against them. These people in the wards 2,000 miles from Salt Lake City do not know how corrupt and money hungry their President and Phrophet are. All of the Presidents claim to be the Phrophet but I know of nothing they have revealed in prophecy.
Tim Wade said
Even though I too questioned John’s true identity, let us assume for a moment that he is who he claims to be. Is his speech not consistent with someone whose heart has already left The Church, although he physically remains? How long does it take for someone to become a Gentile in speech and mannerism after his passion and zeal has fully waned? I’ll play devil’s advocate here and say that if John has been wrestling with his decision to leave for more than a few months, he may well indeed have adopted the speech and mannerisms of a deconverted Mormon.
But here is the real question. Assuming John is who he claims to be, how long would he be allowed to remain in the postion he has described? If The Church is so truly intolerant of people who are not like them, would John and his attitude last a week? A month?
I give John only the slightest benefit of doubt, because I deconverted from the Southern Baptist Convention while attending one of their schools. I was brought into the office of two or three school officials and reprimanded a total of three times on trumped up charges. I ate crow and faced utter humiliation. However, I endured it because I had a calling from God and knew that He who had called me was faithful to complete the work in me that He had started.
My point is this: John, if you are who you say you are, your motivation for leaving The Church will be reflected in your heart-felt desire to follow Jesus somewhere else with people other than members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If indeed you are who you say you are, it will show up not in your disgust over “holy underwear” or self-righteous indignation over someone slandering Billy Graham, but rather in your pursuit to know and love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself.
Peace,
Tim
GB said
Tim,
As you know, the first rule of holes is to stop digging. Yet I see that John continues to dig, ie write like a someone who is not a Mormon but trying to deceive us into thinking he is. Absolutely nothing he wrote indicates that he is or was a real faithful Mormon.
He is not the first of his kind that I have seen on blogs. They have been deceived into believing that deception is an acceptable method for keeping people away from the LDS church.
It is nice of you to give him a benefit of a doubt. He hasn’t given me a single reason to believe him, but numerous reasons not to.
Is there such a thing as “christian” taliban? If so, Andrew could be a charter member.
It is attitudes like his that cause people to fear the Christian right getting political power.
Tim Wade said
GB, funny you should drawn a line to the Taliban. Last night my wife criticized me for being too harsh and abrupt with Mr. Price. I had to explain to her that people like him are in fact terrorists who need to be dealt with swiftly and forcefully. I don’t mind the man sharing his beliefs, but he will not be allowed to waltz in here and start berating me or anyone else for not agreeing with his opinion.
John said
I thank you Pastor Wade. I see 1 post on here named concerned citizen that is completely true. I attended the Temple many times. Now they want me to begin baptizing for my dead relatives because after Jesus’s 12 Apostles all died they think that no one on this earth was authorized by God to baptize. In other words there was a time what they call the Aposty where there were no minsters or preachers with any authority whatsoever. It was only when Joseph Smith at 16 years of age in 1831 restored the gospel on earth. They sincerely believe that from the time the 12 deciples of Jesus died until Joseph Smith appeared in 1831, I believe, that no authority was on earth to perform any sacred acts such as baptizm, marriage, and funerals. I had read the Book of Mormon several times and then I begin looking at scriptures in the Book of Mormon which have an index number to the Bible to prove they come from the Bible. Some did come close to the Bible but others were not even close to the Bible. All I want to do is serve God and pray to God through Jesus Christ and obey His commandments and make it to heaven. I do not believe that I can do that with the Mormons. Brigham Young made the statement when it was pointed out to him that the Bible stated that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit with the Virgin Mary: I quote Brigham Young: We can not accept this. We can not give all of these young girls the Holy Spirit and allow the Holy Spirit to get these girls pregnant. That would put the church in a very bad bind so we must worship a different Jesus than the one the Bible speaks of. I will say no more unless you ask but there are some very good people who are Mormons but there are many bad ones also. If you find the time please go to that website I gave you last night and read a bit of this. This man who wrote this was a high ranking Mormon. I must pray over this. Having a solid relationship with Jesus Christ and making it to heaven is what I desire most in this life. My mother was a penacostal Christian all of her life and they want me to be baptized for her. That is a bit insulting. Thank you Pastor Wade. Everything I told you is true. I do not hate the Mormons or anyone but the Mormons have no respect at all for other religions. May God bless you. If you have any advice for me I would be happy to hear it. Thanks again. John
Tim Wade said
John, thank you again for your comments. I’m sure we’ve got a few friends who can provide some wisdom and insight into the issues you raise.
GB said
Tim,
As far as John’s Mormonism is concerned, after his last post the case is closed. He neither is nor was a faithful Mormon.
Barry said
Hi, Tim. Let me commend you again on your level-headedness and what I believe to be a sincere love for your fellow man–even those that seem to argue against you. You asked for individuals to comment on some of John’s remarks. Let me give it a try.
I have often met those who are angry with the LDS church–both inside and outside the church; and Tim your comments are right on the mark when you say a person’s primary goal should be to love the Lord and their neighbor. Spending lots of time ruminating on how disgusted I am with my neighbor because they don’t do things the way I want them to or the way they profess to believe will bring neither me nor them closer to the Lord. I go to church not because of what others do or despite what they do. I go to church because I need it. Others have to find their own way, but hopefully we help each other a bit along the way.
As for John, I can truly say I feel bad for him–and I say that most sincerely. I have always had good experiences as an LDS member and I view the church as a refuge from the storms of life and the place where I can learn the path back to God. Are there members that sometimes irritate me? Of course–they are human and they screw up. Join the club. Are there hypocrites there who preach one thing and do another? Yes, I’m one of them. Maybe I’ll build a website and form a hypocrites society. Any takers?
I won’t comment on all of John’s points because it will sound too much like an argument and it won’t really solve anything, but let me hit a few items:
1. If someone hammered Billy Graham, that was out of line and John was right in defending him. That doesn’t mean the LDS church is right or wrong–it just means some people are idiots, and sometimes they show up in church.
2. “It’s about money.” I hear this sometimes, but it has no basis in fact. For the record, I live in a suburb of Salt Lake City, and a few people I know work with the main leaders of the church on a daily basis. Those few that work full time for the church in an ecclesiastical setting either do so without salary if they have earned enough in their previous careers, or they do so with a living expense provided by the church. It is far below what men with their experience (most have previously been professionals) earn in the market. Besides that, the vast majority of people who serve at the local and regional level do so without any payment whatsoever. We have a lay ministry. The only area where money will slow you down is if you don’t pay tithing, you are not able to attend the temple. And declaring your tithing status is voluntary (they don’t check your tax returns). Non-tithe payers are welcome to participate in weekly worship services and your tithing status is between only you and your local leader–you don’t wear a sign that indicates whether you pay. And for those that think tithing is just about greed, take a look at Malachi 3: 8 – 12. Sounds like a pretty nice promise to me.
The church uses the funds it receives to, among other things, send relief funds to disaster and economic hardship areas, provide scholarships in disadvantaged areas for education, provide food and basic living needs for those who need it, etc. When natural disasters hit, the LDS church often beats the Red Cross to the scene–distributing blankets, food, clothing, etc.
So…if it’s about money, I’m sure glad the money is spent in that way.
3. “The Mormons will harass you daily if you leave.” I have a very dear friend who left the church after many years. We have lunch almost every week. Once in a while the members of her congregation will call on her family to see if they are okay or to see if they would like to participate in their services or activities. Occasionally the missionaries will stop by. I don’t think she hates them, but she politely tells them she is not interested. That works for her, so give it a shot. I like the fact there are people out there who will check on you–even if you are not too fond of them.
4. Brigham Young quote–bizarro world. Never heard that one and I doubt he said it. Girls and women are given the gift of the Holy Ghost every day in the church, just like the men.
5. Book of Mormon cross references do not quote the Bible. I think he misses the point here. The cross references in the Book of Mormon talk about the same things as the cross-referenced scriptures in the Bible. They are not necessarily direct quotes. Don’t trust me–look for yourself.
6. The LDS church believes God’s priesthood was taken from the earth after Christ’s apostles were killed and ordinances and teachings were changed. Not enough space to address here, but take a look at http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/the-great-apostasy.
I know this is not a comprehensive treatment of John’s concerns, but John for your sake I hope you find peace. And I hope you treat church as a hospital for the spiritually sick, not a country club for the nearly perfect. I look at it that way, and that’s why I go. I wish you well.
Robert said
I, like Barry, simply prefer to wish those like John well and share with him my hope that he finds peace whereever he chooses to worship. Without Christ, life is much harder, regardless of the door you darken on Sunday (or Saturday, or whatever day you worship).
If John is pretending to be Mormon for some reason, then I find it sad to believe Christ would ever want to deceive people into belief. If he is truly a disillusioned Mormon still seeking to follow Christ, then it’s unfortunate but there are many churches where he can choose to do so. Even in Salt Lake.
John said
For GB I am not angry at you for calling me a liar. As long as you pay that 10% of your income and the Bishop gets it to Salt Lake City immediately after the 1st of the month, President Monson and his staff are satisfied. If you are poor and not paying Tithing then they do not waste time after you leave the church looking for you. My very best friend is a Hi Priest with the church and is not a convert. He has been a Mormon all of his life. It does offend me a bit when I am struggling so with my religious beliefs and Jesus Christ is number 1 in my life that you condemn me and call me a fake. I can only suspect that you are a Mormon. I respect all religions except radical Islam and the only person I discussed my doubts with was my best friend who Baptized me and he told me to simply go on with my church duties and I would find that this was the true Gospel. As far as what I quoted about what Brigham Young said that is the truth and will not be hard to produce. President Hinkley said that some people said that the Jesus of the Mormons was not the Jesus of the Bible. He said in a sense these people are right. This was in an Ensign and I can prove this by telling you the date of the Ensign as soon as I can check my notes. I asked several times why people hated Joseph Smith and the Mormons. I was never given an answer. Then I do research and find that Joseph Smith had 33 wives and some of these wives were his mens wives as well as men who were not Mormon. That makes a good case why the Mormons were hated and Joseph Smith and his brother were killed at the Liberty County jail in Missouri. The Mormons give you only bits of information and evade questions until you go to the Temple and you are told to keep your mouth shut from then on which I will always do. The Mormons believe in 3 degrees of glory when you die. The celestial kingdom is the highest. They do not believe in hell for anyone. Yes it is true that the children as well as the people are trained from the day they enter the chapel to all be obedient and the same., just as the communists are.
I do not want any more responses from Mormons. I ask you to go to the website I gave you the other night. This guy is telling the truth and so am I. Here is the web site. 33 reasons why I left the Mormon Church a de conversion. I have never did anything but do my duty in the Mormon church. I do not even ask questions anymore. My Bishop paid me a visit only 2 days ago. I told him I had a niece dying of colon cancer 600 miles from where my house is and I was struggling with my faith in the Mormon church. This same day that of the Billy Graham slander, the Bishop had told me that I was not doing my job. I come in 1 hour early to set up the Sacrement after driving 40 miles to get to the chapel. When the Bishop came up to me I had already set the Sacrement table up and was simply waiting to bless the bread and water with an Arronic Priest. The deacons who pass the sacrement come in about 5 or 1o minutes late every Sunday and nothing is said to them because they are not converts. I asked him what I was doing wrong? He said I was supposed to be covering the water on my side of the Sacrement table after Sacrement. That was my job not the deacons. I can never recall not making certain all of the table was covered before going and setting with the congregation. I was stunned. If you stutter, miss a word or add a word while giving The Sacrement blessing the Bishop makes you back up and start over. I have only had to back up 1 time because I had a piece of the week old bread hung in my throat. After the Sacrement I confronted the Bishop in the hall and told him I had no idea why he accused me of something that was totally false. He said he was sorry and for me to simply forget it. The Mormons do not mourn their dead loved ones as we do. After the funeral it is pretty much over for them. My Mother died in 1998 and I still cry about her death. The Mormons own land in several states and in England as well. Not long ago they spent 400 million dollars on a new convention center and satellite system. They bought a Mall for 2 billion dollars in Salt Lake City and renovated it yet still allow alcohol to be served in the mall. These people have almost as much money as our government. They send very little if any of the tithing money back to the wards or branches. A member of the church does all of the maid service in the chapel. The poor young missionaries are given nothing. They sometimes find them an old apartment and pay for that but they must eat on their own money from their families while the Salt Lake President and staff live as kings. I plan on attending the Mormon church tomorrow because I promised the Bishop I would. I hold nothing against the Bishop. So much pressure is put on him no wander he says things that make no sense. To the Mormon leaders it is all about numbers and money. There are 13 million Mormons on earth, many in South America. There are 1.3 billion Catholics on earth who ask the poor and all other people to pay what tithing they can afford. Of course most people who can afford it pay full tithing as the Bible asks. I do not want another Mormon to respond to me. I have an IQ of 146. I probably know more about your church than you ever will. I am asking for advice from pastor Wade and other Faiths. I already know where the Mormons stand. If it can be proven to me that Joseph Smith did not take all of these men’s wives and lived the life God expected of him I shall be satisfied. I believe the Bible much more than the Book of Mormon. Do not get me started on the Laminites or many people are going to be offended. May God bless you Pastor Wade and all others on this site. I have no animosity for anyone. I realize the Mormons are attempting to get me to identify myself and I will should I leave the church. I will write you a book on the church within 2 weeks. God bless.
Tim Wade said
John, thank you again for sharing your heart with us. Let me be up front with you and say that I neither doubt your Mormon faith, nor do I believe it. You mention a struggle, a crisis of faith between the doctrines upheld by the Latter-day Saints and what seems to be a lack of peace within your heart. You present this inner conflict as fact, therefore I believe that conflict exists. It is to that issue which I wish to speak, whether you are a Mormon or not.
Here is my advice based upon my own experience; Take a look with me at Romans 14:22-23, “So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.”
If you feel as if you made a mistake converting to The Church, leave. Let this be a matter between you and God. No man has died for your sins except the Lord Jesus Christ, therefore youy must work out your salvation with fear and trembling according to what he tells you in your spirit. In the words of Jesus, “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
Do not let this matter leave you feeling hopeless. Take comfort that it is God who is speaking to your restless spirit and seeking you out so that He might give you comfort. As frustrating as this may be for you right now, it is but a light affliction that soon will reveal an eternal reward in glory. God is using you for His glory. Don’t quit now.
yours in Christ,
Tim Wade
GB said
Tim,
I have refrained from pointing out the anti-Mormon “flags” that John has been waiving here. I did not want to waste my time with such drivel nor did I want to clutter up your site. However since he continues to maintain the charade, I will address the obvious issues.
“I would say that the Mormons have decieved you the way they have me for the last 2 years.”
A classic generalization.
“I am a Melchisedek Priest.”
A classic anti-Mormon shibboleth. This is a phrase that doesn’t come from the Mormon Priesthood culture. So where did it come from?
“Yesterday in Priesthood class, 1 man begin slandering Billy Graham who I think was the most honest preacher ever.”
That is a classic antidotal story. What? No names? Why not name the scoundrel? Ah better to paint with a broad, vague and non-specific brush. Specifics and details can be verified. The classic anti-Mormon doesn’t want that.
“Not 1 Priest came to his defense except me.”
Oh, how valiant of him. I thought he was a Melchisedek priesthood holder not Aaronic. Is he lying about being a Melchisedek prieshood holder or is he lying about being a Priest? Which is it?
“I am done with the underwear and all of the other stupid things they do.”
Another classic anti-Mormon shibboleth. We call them “garments” and they are sacred. And what is up with the “they”, I thought he was one of us. A Freudian slip perhaps? How can he be done with the “underwear” if he hasn’t ever worn them? Sorry but priests don’t get garments. But a real and faithful Mormon would know that.
“They attempt to index the book of Mormon to the Bible but it never fits.”
That is another classic anti-Mormon statement. Again no specifics, why is that?
“They are constantly hammering other religions.”
Ah, yes the notorious “they”. “They” are always the problem. Too bad “they” don’t have names. Could he point to the anti-“other religions” web sites that are produced by the Church? And why not? Could it be that they don’t exist? Could this be the “psychological projections” of an anti-Mormon?
“I talked with a fourth generation Mormon on another site and He told me what I already knew.”
Ah, another anonymous source. This is getting to be a habit.
“If it comes down to it I will give the church location as well as my real name.”
That would be a start.
“It is very difficult to get away from these Mormons even after you leave.”
So then, even after he has left (wink wink), it is difficult to get away? Wow, he really does have a problem.
“They will harass you every single day to come back until you get a restraining order against them.”
The notorious “they” again.
“These people in the wards 2,000 miles from Salt Lake City do not know how corrupt and money hungry their President and Phrophet are.”
But of course, he knows something about this that nobody else in the Church knows. Which anti-Mormon sited did he get this “accurate” information from? And why can’t he spell Prophet correctly?
“All of the Presidents claim to be the Phrophet but I know of nothing they have revealed in prophecy.”
Well, of course, him being an anti-Mormon wouldn’t have anything to do with his knowing “nothing” about this. So he knows things about the money that no one else knows but he doesn’t know about how revelation and prophecy work. Humm.
“I see 1 post on here named concerned citizen that is completely true.”
I have read all of the posts on this thread, I haven’t seen one from “concerned citizen”. I would like to know what this person said that is “completely true”
“I attended the Temple many times.”
Another classic anti-Mormon phrase to give weight to what he is about to say.
“Now they want me to begin baptizing for my dead relatives because after Jesus’s 12 Apostles all died they think that no one on this earth was authorized by God to baptize.”
Wow, I have been a member for over 40 years. “They” haven’t been after me to get my dead relatives baptized. Do the “they” wear jackboots and arm bands? Funny but Mormons don’t believe that the “12 Apostles all died”, we believe that the apostle John was promised that he would live until the Savior returns in Glory. But if John was a real and faithful Mormon he would know that.
“In other words there was a time what they call the Aposty where there were no minsters or preachers with any authority whatsoever.”
Although, this is true, again he uses non-Mormon shibboleths.
“It was only when Joseph Smith at 16 years of age in 1831 restored the gospel on earth.”
Actually Joseph Smith was 14 when he was visited by God, and the Church was restored in 1830. But a real and faithful Mormon would know that.
“They sincerely believe that from the time the 12 deciples of Jesus died until Joseph Smith appeared in 1831, I believe, that no authority was on earth to perform any sacred acts such as baptizm, marriage, and funerals.”
This one is fun. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. So Joseph Smith “appeared” in 1831? Actually, he was born in 1805.
Wow, so John believes “that no authority was on earth to perform any sacred acts such as . . . marriage, and funerals.”? What can I say? I thought the state had authority over marriage. I didn’t know you needed authority to do funerals. Whatever religion John is, it isn’t Mormon.
“I had read the Book of Mormon several times and then I begin looking at scriptures in the Book of Mormon which have an index number to the Bible to prove they come from the Bible.”
A real Mormon would know the difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon. John obviously does NOT and this after reading the Book of Mormon “several times” no less.
“All I want to do is serve God and pray to God through Jesus Christ and obey His commandments and make it to heaven.”
Well, you could start with not bearing false witness.
“Brigham Young made the statement when it was pointed out to him that the Bible stated that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit with the Virgin Mary”
Shall we spend the time to look at what the Bible really says regarding this topic, because John obviously doesn’t know?
Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: (That would be the Father not the Holy Ghost) and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
. . .
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest (meaning the Father not the Holy Ghost) shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God (the Father NOT the Son of the Holy Ghost).
“My mother was a penacostal Christian all of her life . . .”
That part could really be true.
“. . . and they want me to be baptized for her.”
LOL!!! Well, we again have the “they”, and sorry but John can NEVER be baptized for his mother so why would the “they” want him to? Only another female can be baptized for his mother, but again a real and faithful Mormon would know that.
“That is a bit insulting.”
Ah, yes indeed it is.
“I do not hate the Mormons or anyone . . .”
Me thinks he doth protest too much.
“ . . . but the Mormons have no respect at all for other religions.”
Wow, another generalization with no supporting data. Still looking for those anti-“other religions” material produced by the Church. Perhaps John can point us to it.
“For GB I am not angry at you for calling me a liar.”
Actually I didn’t call him a liar but I am calling him a fraud.
“As long as you pay that 10% of your income and the Bishop gets it to Salt Lake City immediately after the 1st of the month, President Monson and his staff are satisfied.”
LOL, so if I don’t pay it by the 1st of the month (which I haven’t done on many occasions) do the “they” in jackboots and arm bands show up? And since the “they” don’t have access to my pay information, how would the “they” know that it isn’t a full 10%? (Other than my word of course?)
“If you are poor and not paying Tithing then they do not waste time after you leave the church looking for you.”
And would John know this how? Based on his own experience? I thought he was having trouble leaving the Church.
“My very best friend is a Hi Priest with the church and is not a convert.”
Wow!! Really? I have never heard of a “Hi Priest” before. What church is John talking about now?
“He has been a Mormon all of his life.”
And how is this relevant to this topic? Is this supposed to add weight to his (whopper) story?
“It does offend me a bit when I am struggling so with my religious beliefs and Jesus Christ is number 1 in my life that you condemn me and call me a fake.”
If John would stop being a fraud, he could stop being offended.
“I respect all religions except radical Islam . . .”
And Mormons, but of course he left that obvious part out.
“. . . and the only person I discussed my doubts with was my best friend who Baptized me . . .”
So, this friend is the ONLY one who knows about these supposed doubts? Then the rest of us are totally unaware of these supposed doubts, right?
“. . . and he told me to simply go on with my church duties and I would find that this was the true Gospel.”
And John, of course, believed this rogue and now look at the mess he is in. That is some “best friend” that John has.
“As far as what I quoted about what Brigham Young said that is the truth and will not be hard to produce.”
Of course not, but why should John bother about being accurate in his quotations? After all he is only impugning the character of another person and religion. No need for accuracy when doing that.
“President Hinkley said that some people said that the Jesus of the Mormons was not the Jesus of the Bible. He said in a sense these people are right. This was in an Ensign and I can prove this by telling you the date of the Ensign as soon as I can check my notes.”
So John doesn’t actually have the Ensign magazine available to him? He has this information in his notes (from his anti-Mormon source no doubt)? On this one it would be very helpful if he provided an accurate quote. But hey, no need for that, he can make it sound a lot worse if he isn’t accurate.
“I asked several times why people hated Joseph Smith and the Mormons. I was never given an answer.”
Gee, could it be that the devil stirs up hatred and falsehoods against the truth? But again, a real and faithful Mormon who has read the Book of Mormon several times, would know about the opposition that the devil has provided against the truth and those who preach it since the fall of Adam.
“Then I do research and find that Joseph Smith had 33 wives and some of these wives were his mens wives as well as men who were not Mormon.”
Again, a real and faithful Mormon would know the difference between being “married” in this life and being “sealed” together in the afterlife. This is more of the standard anti-Mormon fare.
“That makes a good case why the Mormons were hated and Joseph Smith and his brother were killed at the Liberty County jail in Missouri.”
So murder, in this case was justified?
Also, Joseph and his brother were murdered at Carthage jail in Carthage Illinois, but a real and faithful Mormon would know that.
“The Mormons give you only bits of information and evade questions until you go to the Temple . . .”
So if this is true, why did John “join” the church?
‘. . . and you are told to keep your mouth shut from then on . . .”
By the infamous “they”, no doubt.
“. . . which I will always do.”
Like now?
“They do not believe in hell for anyone.”
Accept for the wicked, who will reside there until the resurrection, but a real and faithful Mormon would know that.
“Yes it is true that the children as well as the people are trained from the day they enter the chapel to all be obedient and the same., just as the communists are.”
So when do we get our uniforms? LOL!
So other religions don’t teach their children or their people? This is news to me. Where did John learn all of this anti-Mormon stuff?
“I do not want any more responses from Mormons.”
Is John afraid that his fraud will be exposed?
“This guy is telling the truth and so am I.”
Yes, Yes, we can see that now.
“Here is the web site. 33 reasons why I left the Mormon Church a de conversion.”
Why not just give us a hyperlink and save us a lot of trouble?
“I have never did anything but do my duty in the Mormon church.”
Yes, Yes, we can see that too.
“I do not even ask questions anymore.”
And why not? Are you afraid of the answers, or would you actually have to go to a Mormon Church for a change?
“My Bishop paid me a visit only 2 days ago.”
Ah, that slimy rascal. Why would he purposely go out of his way to visit you?
“This same day that of the Billy Graham slander, . . .”
Really? Let’s see, John posted this on Sat. May 2, 2009, two days before that was, Thur, Apr 30, 2009.
So the Bishop visited John on Thur, Apr 30 the same day as the supposed Billy Graham slander, which was the day before John’s Mon, Apr 27 post making it Sunday, Apr 26.
So just to summarize, according to John, Thur, Apr 30 is Sun Apr 26.
John hasn’t learned yet that when he is fabricating things, he needs to be more consistent.
“I come in 1 hour early to set up the Sacrement after driving 40 miles to get to the chapel.”
A job normally done by a Teacher not a “Melchisedek Priest”, whatever that is.
“If you stutter, miss a word or add a word while giving The Sacrement blessing . . .”
A job normally done by a Priest not a “Melchisedek Priest”. So why was John doing two separate things that are normally assigned to offices in a lesser priesthood? Not that it can’t happen but it certainly is highly unusual in a ward.
“The Mormons do not mourn their dead loved ones as we do.”
Another Freudian slip? So Mormons aren’t part of the “we” of Johns world. Could it be because John is NOT a real and faithful Mormon?
“After the funeral it is pretty much over for them.”
And John knows this how?
“My Mother died in 1998 and I still cry about her death.”
Sorry for Johns loss. But he continues to try to separate himself from Mormons, all while claiming to be one.
“The Mormons own land in several states and in England as well.”
This fact alone must make them evil!!!!
“Not long ago they spent 400 million dollars on a new convention center and satellite system.”
More evil to be sure.
“They bought a Mall for 2 billion dollars in Salt Lake City and renovated it yet still allow alcohol to be served in the mall.”
Truly sinister! Of course, if they didn’t allow alcohol to be served, the complaints would still come in.
“These people have almost as much money as our government.”
Considering that the government is trillions of dollars in debt, John personally has more real wealth than our government. Oh wait, that makes him evil too right?
“They send very little if any of the tithing money back to the wards or branches.”
Yes, they only send back the entire operating budget of each ward or branch.
“A member of the church does all of the maid service in the chapel.”
Truly an evil thing to make people clean up after themselves. Why they might even take better care of the facilities, and that of course would be bad.
“The poor young missionaries are given nothing.”
And John, having never served a mission would know this how?
“They sometimes find them an old apartment and pay for that but they must eat on their own money from their families while the Salt Lake President and staff live as kings.”
What!! No mansions for the missionaries!! No wonder they can’t get more that 50,000 to serve at any given time. Maybe if they improved the conditions they could get more people to serve.
“So much pressure is put on him no wander he says things that make no sense.”
But John, is a paragon of sense.
“To the Mormon leaders it is all about numbers and money.”
What? No evidence? No pictures of their opulent lifestyles? Man, they sure or good at hiding it from everyone, except John of course, he know all about it. He got his information from one of those very reliable anti-Mormon sources.
“I do not want another Mormon to respond to me.”
Tim, I am abiding by this request of John’s, I hope you don’t mind.
“I have an IQ of 146.”
This, of course is relevant to this topic, as someone with an IQ of 146 would surely know.
“I probably know more about your church than you ever will.”
This has become painfully obvious to every Mormon here
. And only after two years. Again, a Freudian slip “your church”.
“I am asking for advice from pastor Wade and other Faiths.”
Maybe John should verify your IQ, before doing this.
“I already know where the Mormons stand.”
Obviously.
“If it can be proven to me that Joseph Smith did not take all of these men’s wives and lived the life God expected of him I shall be satisfied.”
The fallacy of a false choice. John presumes to know the mind and will of God.
“Do not get me started on the Laminites or many people are going to be offended.”
I am always offended when someone starts “on the Laminites” aren’t you?
“May God bless you Pastor Wade and all others on this site.”
On this I can agree with John.
“I have no animosity for anyone.”
Accept Mormons and radical Islamists of course.
“I realize the Mormons are attempting to get me to identify myself and I will should I leave the church.”
Drats, John has seen through my foul plan. How can I send the “they” to “persuade” him if I don’t find out who he really is?
“I will write you a book on the church within 2 weeks.”
Wow, that is less time than it took for Joseph Smith to “write” the Book of Mormon.
Tim, I hope you don’t mind the sarcasm that is found in this post. And I am sorry about the length; I guess you can thank John for that.
If John wants to “leave” the church, I wish he would hurry up and do it. It is unfortunate but most people that leave the church just can’t leave it alone.
Cheers and God bless.
Tim Wade said
GB, I love you. Excellent points all around. It is inded unfortunate that most people who leave the church – any church – just can’t leave it alone.
Linda Soderquist said
Wow! I’ve been away for awhile. Alot has been written here. A week has gone by without comments. I could just be silent, but I would just like to say that even though his arguments did not resonate with me, I hope that John works through his own issues and makes a decision about his faith and what context will enhance it. Also, I would say that John’s emotional response is out of proportion and probably points to a large portion of undifferentiated emotional pain that he hasn’t even touched yet. Best wishes, John. Pain…is pain.
To those who responded to John in a less than Christian way (you decide if that was you) I say, Hey, why are you getting upset with John? Stay calm! You know what turns away wrath.
I’ve enjoyed all your responses Tim. I appreciated your compassion, indignation, rational and Christ-like thought. Terrific writing as well!
Tim Wade said
Linda, it is great to hear from you. Yes, there has been quite a bit of recent activity. Thank you again for the kind comment, and the boldness with which you make it. I hope you are doing well. God bless you. – Tim
John said
Tim wrote: “First I do not care what Mormons believe.” That, imho, is a mistake. We (as Christians) should care. At least, care enough to know the fundamentals of Mormonism. Doesn’t mean we have to be self-proclaimed experts. But by the same token, we shouldn’t be ignorant either. Why? Because Mormonism claims not just to be “Christian” but more importantly they claim to be ORIGINAL Christianity. Which, insinuates the rest of us are a part of apostate Christianity. Their history of deception, manipulation and outright lies needs to be exposed so uninformed Chistians will not be so easily misled into joining their ranks and perpetuating their false teachings.
Now, if Mormonism came out and said they were a totally new and separate and distinct religion from Christianity, then I wouldn’t be so adament about this. It is only because they falsely claim to be true Christianity that I must stand up against Mormonism.
Secondly, Tim wrote: “perhaps the Church will find the means to follow the Mormon example and win the world for Christ.”
The “world” will never follow Christ. Our job as Christians is to go out into the world and preach the gospel. I will take my example from Christ not from a false religion such as Mormonism.
John said
Tim Wade wrote: “It is indeed unfortunate that most people who leave the church – any church – just can’t leave it alone.”
I think that’s an overgeneralization. Do you have a way to measure this? Maybe some people can’t “leave it alone” but I don’t know that I would say “most people”. Besides, what is wrong with a person giving their point of view/testimony regarding their experiences within a particular religion?
If there are true religions why not false religions? If there are true beliefs why not false beliefs? If a person comes out of a false religion and feels impressed by God to tell (warn) others about that false religion (to prevent those other people from making the same mistake of joining as he did) why would you find fault with that? Shouldn’t we warn our brothers and sisters in Christ against false teachings? The apostle Paul didn’t seem to have a problem doing that.
Tim Wade said
John,
Thanks for the comment. While I don’t want to get into a debate with you, I do want to clarify a couple of points. First, do not mistake my unwillingness to plunge headlong into a debate over LDS doctrine with ignorance or apathy. While I am no expert, I am very familiar with the various doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and how they differ from traditional orthodox views of Christianity. However, I am reminded by the Bible in 1 Corinthians 3:6-7 that it is not my place to change the way people believe. I plant the Word, another waters, and God in His infinite wisdom gives the increase to my efforts. Yes, I am to rebuke and correct when someone is in error, but where is it written that in order to accomplish this task I have to beat up my fellow man with the Bible?
Second, you write “Their history of deception, manipulation and outright lies needs to be exposed so uninformed Chistians [sic] will not be so easily misled into joining their ranks and perpetuating their false teachings.”
John, what rock have you been living under for the last few years. Did you attend school? Have you ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition? The Crusades? The Reformation? In case you haven’t noticed, the history of your own faith isn’t lined with rose pedals either. Take a look at your hand. You may be pointing with one finger, but you’ve got at least three fingers pointing back at you.
Tim
Tim Wade said
John, with the exception of the consistent decline of the Evangelical church proven by data collected by mainstream denominations such as the Southern Baptist who have nothing to gain by publishing their losses, a rise in atheism by another group whom I can not recall at the moment, and twenty plus years of empirical studies, no I do not have a way to measure my “generalization.
And you ask, “what is wrong with a person giving their point of view/testimony regarding their experiences within a particular religion.” Personally, I find nothing wrong with a giving their point of view or sharing their experience. However when a person crosses the line and becomes judgmental and condemning then I have a tendency take some exception to what is being said.
As for the part about true and false religions – when self-righteous “Christians” decide to address the issue of the log in their own eye, I might be willing to sit down and discuss the speck in my neighbor’s eye. Right now I am a bit too busy looking for my own pair of extra large tweezers.
Robert said
So, for the record, John seems to have dropped the “disaffected Mormon” ruse in the latest posts and speaks only as an outsider – and possibly one who was never an insider as he claims.
And yet he speaks against the LDS as liars and spreaders of falsehood. Credibility, it would seem, is most definitely lacking at this point. I will leave it at that.
Tim Wade said
Rob, as much as can tell, we are dealing with two different Johns. The IP addresses are different (granted he could be using a different computer) and ISPs seem to be coming from different regions. Still, I grant you that because all the comments he leaves make no sense it lends itself to the belief that we could be dealing with the same individual.
Barry said
Tim, I loved your last comment. Though it may be true you and I may never agree completely on every point of doctrine, I have a feeling we could sit down together and laugh ourselves silly and walk away best of friends. In fact, one of our LDS leaders who passed away not long ago gave an address in 2008 regarding the wonderful differences in God’s children and how Christ always shows concern for “the one”. This may be pertinent to some of those feeling disaffected based on their comments on your blog. Here is his quote:
Some are lost because they are different. They feel as though they don’t belong. Perhaps because they are different, they find themselves slipping away from the flock. They may look, act, think, and speak differently than those around them and that sometimes causes them to assume they don’t fit in. They conclude that they are not needed.
Tied to this misconception is the erroneous belief that all members of the Church should look, talk, and be alike. The Lord did not people the earth with a vibrant orchestra of personalities only to value the piccolos of the world. Every instrument is precious and adds to the complex beauty of the symphony. All of Heavenly Father’s children are different in some degree, yet each has his own beautiful sound that adds depth and richness to the whole.
This variety of creation itself is a testament of how the Lord values all His children. He does not esteem one flesh above another, but He “inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; . . . all are alike unto God.”
Tim Wade said
Amen Barry! I too have often felt as if I could sit and talk for hours with many of the people who have left comments on this blog and enjoy the fellowship immensely. Iron sharpens iron, and the Lord knows I need sharpening. As someone who has earned degrees from both a conservative fundamentalist school and a more moderate to liberal school, it does not frighten me to sit down and discuss faith on a level that may in fact reveal a kink in my armor. But that is me and my faith, which in turn reflects the way I believe and makes no statement whatsoever about the redeeming work of the blood of Jesus and its power in and over my life to save me from sin. When is the Christian community going to wake up and realize that their beauty and purpose for being here comes from God alone and not from whether we have a conversation with people are different from us? Maybe some day we can find a place to meet and for a few hours just laugh ourselves silly.
John said
Tim,
I agree with you that getting into a debate over Mormon doctrines (on this type of medium) isn’t constructive. Can we, as Christians, learn a few things from the members of the LDS church? Sure. But again, why look to the Mormons? When we should be looking at the examples set forth in the New Testament and throughout Christian history. You asked if I had “ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition?” Yes, I have. As well as the Crusades and other violent actions from self-proclaimed “Christians”. According to the apostle Paul, “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.” Can a bad tree produce good fruit (like Paul mentioned)? I think the evidence points to the fact that these atrocities committed in the name of religion were not done by true Christians. Of course, that is my opinion and belief and only God knows for certain. But why tell us what to look for if we aren’t supposed to identify them?
The fact remains that Joseph Smith lied, broke the law, committed adultery, swindled people out of their money (which is nothing less than stealing). All under the claim that he was a “prophet” of God. And yet, we aren’t allowed to call a spade a spade?
John said
What do you mean my comments make no sense? I suppose if this other “John” and I were the same person it wouldn’t make any sense. But I have been consistent in what I have posted above. I’m not saying each individual Mormon is a bad person! I am simply trying to say that if a church (any church) starts from a lie and is built upon more lies, how can it be true? There may be many wonderful, nice, generous people within that church (of that I have no doubt). But that doesn’t change the very foundation of their church. Do you think it’s right to try and cover up their shady past with good works? Why not simply tell the truth, admit you were wrong and repent? Isn’t that the correct way? (I’m speaking generally and not at “you” personally).
If the principle of repentance is true, why not call the LDS church (or any organization for that matter) to repentance? If they are a part of Christianity (as they claim) then don’t we as Christians have a responsibility to expose them to the light of truth?
I don’t go around condemning other religions like Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, etc. because they don’t claim to be Christian. They can believe whatever they want to. But when you start claiming to be a Christian and misrepresenting what Christ taught then what kind of Christian would I be if I sat idly by on my hands and said nothing?
John said
Tim, in another post you said you agreed with the LDS on “general principles concerning matters of marriage, family, call to mission, giving, and sanctification”. If you don’t mind, I’d like to give you my perspective.
I can agree with LDS that they type of marriage God instituted (Biblically) should be between a Man and a Woman. However, does that mean that other types of marriages (such as plural) are wrong? It’s a difficult question to answer (for me at least). I agree with the LDS 12th article of faith which says: “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. ” So, what’s an LDS member to do when the law says one thing and the LDS prophet breaks the law (I’m referring to Joseph Smith)?
Concerning being called to missions. While I see the LDS missionary force is unique to other faith’s missionary efforts (going on a mission for 2 years as a young adult) is this really something we should be emulating? Aren’t missionaries (at least in my Christian faith) called to serve full time and not just a temporary 2 year stint?
Concerning giving. Should we expect church members to tithe or prevent them from progressing in sanctification? Is that even possible? For the record, the NT does not command tithing, rather we (as Christians) are urged to give. That is not limited to a mere 10% of ones income, but includes time, efforts, means, etc. Jesus expects us to give of ourselves 100% not a mere 10%. Maybe that’s the problem with Christianity. We only want to give to God as though we are giving him a tip. Doesn’t it already ALL belong to Him?
The LDS notion that families can be together forever is pretty misleading. How can a family be together in eternity if one (or more) members of that family reject the LDS gospel? From a Christian perspective, God isn’t trying to build a church organization. Rather, we are born again into the Family of God. My family isn’t just blood relatives, but every single person whom God has chosen. Now that’s an eternal family!
John said
Tim,
Just out of curiosity have you read about the origin of the Book of Mormon? Are you familiar with the Book entitled “Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon”? You can find it in Amazon.com and believe me, it’s well worth the read. While some might falsely accuse it of being “anti-Mormon” the truth is that it’s more pro-Spaulding than anti-Mormon in that it sets the record straight.
Tim Wade said
John, I am not familiar with this book, but I will take a look at it. Thanks.
Robert said
I believe you can find a review of that book on FAIR’s website, which basically shows the analysis from an academic/historical perspective is ridiculously poor and not at all in keeping with standard analysis as done by scholars. In other words, they did something that a scholar would not do to validate their claims that the Book of Mormon was written by someone in the 19th century, and that the someone was not Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith didn’t write it, of course, nor did he ever claim to.
I just thought I’d give you some background on that book, if it is the one I’m thinking of.
Barry said
Sorry for weighing in again, and I can’t possibly hope to address all the attacks on the LDS faith because there are far more people willing to attack than I or any army can hope to answer. However, let me quote former President Carter from a comment he made in 1997: “During the interview, Carter, a Southern Baptist Sunday School teacher, said that SBC leaders are wrong in characterizing Mormons as non-Christians. “Too many leaders now, I think, in the Southern Baptist Convention and in other conventions, are trying to act as the Pharisees did, who were condemned by Christ, in trying to define who can and who cannot be considered an acceptable person in the eyes of God. In other words, they’re making judgments on behalf of God. I think that’s wrong.” Carter testified that “the people in my own local church have no interest in trying to condemn Mormons or trying to convert Mormons to be good old Baptists like me.” Carter criticized SBC leaders for becoming “narrow in their definition of what is a proper Christian” and for believing “that every verse in the Bible has to be interpreted literally.”
As for some of the specifics of the assertions made earlier, if you want a good analysis on the claims made in the book “Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon”, I suggest you look at http://www.lightplanet.com/response/spalding.htm.
As for whether Joseph Smith “lied, broke the law, committed adultery, swindled…blah, blah”, these are old assertions, always made without specifics or facts. If you look at the record, you will find a man but who helped everyone he could, who encouraged people to help each other and emulate the teachings of Christ and who steadfastly maintained his testimony until he and his brother were shot dead by a mob. If you really believe the words of Christ when he said “by their fruits ye shall know them,” you have to take an honest look at the LDS church and the good they do in the world and then ask if their founder was the criminal some try to make him. Let’s not forgot the Bible is replete with examples of prophets who were criticized and rejected.
This goes back to something I mentioned earlier in this blog, but which is lost on some of the critics of the LDS faith. If you want to know about a person, or a church, etc., is it really best to go to the critics of that person/organization if you expect the truth? While you might get some truth, it is also reasonable to expect you might get some information that is tainted either purposely or carelessly.
Here’s a novel idea–if you want to know about the Book of Mormon–read it!! If you want to know who represents God as a prophet, don’t ask people with an ax to grind–ask God! He really does answer.
Though I’m afraid these appeals to go beyond rumor and innuendo to find the truth will probably fall on deaf ears, I really think it’s the way to go. And I know that a God who loves his children more than we can imagine will answer.
Don’t you?
Tim Wade said
Barry, I agree with you. I guess I should be getting used to hearing people make value statements and passing judgment against their fellow man based on little more than ignorance and emotion. Still, amazes me when I see it.
John said
Barry, I find it interesting that you would tell us to read the Book of Mormon itself rather than get our information about it from outside sources. And yet, you do not extend this same courtesy to the book “Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon” and prefer to refer us to a Mormon website called Lightplanet. Yes, I have read their “review” and it’s so clearly biased that it becomes practically worthless.
Let me ask you, Barry, have you actually read “Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon”?
If not, then why don’t you take your own advice and let the book speak for itself rather than rely on the biased opinions of those Mormons who clearly have an agenda?
John said
Barry apparently doesn’t believe the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith “lied, broke the law, committed adultery, swindled…blah, blah”.
So, you want facts? Would that change your mind about him being a real prophet of God? On May 26, 1844 Joseph Smith denied he had ever practiced polygamy: “What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.”
Now, who here DOESN’T know that it is a FACT that Joseph Smith WAS practicing polygamy at the very time he was denying it!?
Why on earth would you want to place your faith and trust in a lying prophet?
Yes, he broke the laws because at that time it was illegal to practice bigamy/polygamy.
http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/polygamy_illegal.htm
John said
So Barry, I’ve shown that Joseph Smith Lied. He was also guilty of breaking the anti-bigamy laws of Illinois. Instead of being faithful to his wife, Emma, he chose instead to cheat on her and sleep with other women, thus committing adultery. So, he lied, broke the law and committed adultery. And yet, you have the nerve to claim he was a prophet of God?
GB said
John: So Barry, I’ve shown that Joseph Smith Lied.
GB: Actually you haven’t SHOWN any such thing. You have only made bald assertions and unsubstantiated accusations.
No surprise here.
Tim Wade said
And it is because this tit for tat battle that I see proving and disproving one’s faith a losing battle. Jesus never tried to “prove” anything to anybody by arguing. He said, “Come and experience me. If you have seen me you have seen the Father.” We can witness and argue all day long, but unless that witness is rooted in the love of Jesus, nobody is going to believe one way or the other.
GB said
Tim,
Well said! (As usual.)
Still, I find it amazing how lose some people are with the “facts” when it comes to impugning the character of others.
Unfortunately, this kind of behavior will be with us until the end.
Barry said
Tim, I’m totally with you. Using a rather strange approach, let me respond and then explain why my response won’t matter.
John, in criticizing me above, you ask if I have read the works claiming the Book of Mormon was based on a manuscript written by Solomon Spalding. Would it surprise you if I said I have read many of those accounts? Would it also surprise you if I told you they all make essentially the same assertions as the book you reference? I would ask you if you actually reviewed the link I referenced, but I think the answer is obvious. You looked at it, and then discounted everything written because its author appears to be LDS. And of course, an LDS person has an agenda (no one else does, just the LDS folks), so we must discount what they say as a simple matter of logic… On the other hand, since the authors of the book on Spaulding do not have an agenda, we can accept everything they say without question. It makes searching for the truth so very simple, doesn’t it? (Heaven forbid we actually ask God–He must have all sorts of agendas…)
By the way, I’ve also read Fawn Brodie, who as Light Planet points out was an outspoken critic of the LDS church and Joseph Smith. She, too, offers a number of reasons the Spalding theory is incorrect. Of course, you need to be careful which LDS critics you choose, because some will disagree with each other.
You then get into the age old claim of Joseph Smith lying about polygamy. I would refer you to an excellent link that talks about the whole polygamy thing in agonizing detail, including the claims of lying, etc. However, we would have the same problem–it was written by one of those blasted LDS folks. Therefore, it can’t be trusted. So, referring you there would be a waste of time.
Tim, I’m coming to a point here (I know, not a moment too soon). For those whose objective it is to criticize a religion, or to demonize those long since dead who cannot defend themselves; they will never run out of ammunition or energy. And, as you so aptly point out, all your arguments…or mine…or any Biblical author’s are just a waste of time in trying to head off that misguided energy.
Tim, in agreeing totally with your advice, I’ll just add my witness here that Jesus is our Savior, and both the Bible and Book of Mormon testify of Him. God is neither fickle nor changeable; and if He led people in Old and New Testament times via prophets, why would He not lead us so now? Do we not have problems that require His help? Is he bound by our opinions that He can no longer lead us in that way? I think not.
Okay, I’m also going to take your earlier advice, which I didn’t learn the first time, and step back, once again, from the urinal. The match is both messy and pointless.
John said
My apologies to those who I may have offended with my comments. I simply wanted to share my viewpoint as others have done. Mormons are good people and I have no doubt are very sincere in their beliefs. I won’t fault them for that. I may not agree with Mormonism, but I can see the good they have done as well as their accomplishments.
Barry said
John, that is a wonderful comment and I apologize as well if any of my remarks are too contentious. I often make the mistake of pressing points too…vigorously. Let’s agree to extend the olive branch and be brothers even if we don’t agree on everything. Like you, some of the best Christians I know are those that don’t necessarily belong to the same denomination as me.